The Dreams Thread

[CiG]

i mean i'm sure we're probably in agreement that, regardless of how correct it is, 'lets just agree to disagree because quality is subjective' 'ok' is never a particularly useful conversation to have. there's an assumption when entering into any debate that you're gonna be able to convince the other person to change their perspective, which assumes there's a consensus set of values/goals between us that we can appeal to in order to do that convincing. and because there's always that consensus to some extent due to our being human beings with similar biology/psychology/language/basic experiences/etc, there's always the possibility of having your viewpoint changed if you're open to it--there's always the possibility that you'll learn that your opinion is incompatible with who you are, in a sense. so there's never a situation where playing the 'everything is subjective so let's agree to disagree' card isn't counter-productive, because we always come at everything from a place of partial consensus and partial disagreement, and debating with those who are partly similar and partly different is how learning occurs. maybe that's a better way of articulating my stance on this: the argument 'artistic quality is subjective' goes against the spirit of dialogue itself, so it's always useful to behave as though it's incorrect. i think that's what a lot of peterson's arguments boil down to as well.

Yes, agreed. Actually I might say that I picked out your claim of objectivity because that boils down the debate of art's quality to a set of clinical methods and factors that empty the subject of its soul and passion. I do hate it when people just say "meh it's subjective" for the same reason I hate it when people boil it down to objective factors; it makes a debate of passions and personal experiences redundant.

I think that objectively measuring something is more prone to trampling the spirit of dialogue than subjectively measuring something is prone to.
Most times people say "meh it's subjective" do so out of laziness or even perhaps a certain insecurity over their own views or ability to convince or be convinced and I think many objectivists in relation to art (often conservatives) cling to this worldview out of a fear of the chaos and disorder that comes with a subjective art quality worldview. Both clearly have their legitimacy.

as for what you say about family guy, i think what's good/ethical/etc is incredibly complex and never hinges on the mere presence of a few overarching modes like that (i realise i did a similarly shallow critique of FG in the first place and that's what you're responding to, but with these posts i've mostly just been arguing for the principle of it - that, in principle, one could write hundreds of pages analysing in detail how family guy is or is not compatible with objective good as i described it, and reach a conclusion supported well enough that it would convince any sane person of adopting its position). you're right that i haven't made a good argument about why family guy is objectively bad so there's no real need to defend the show until i do tbh. broad declarations are never enough and that's kind of why art criticism has become an artform in itself: mapping out the reasons why an artwork may be worthy or unworthy is a hell of a difficult, elaborate process (and, i'll freely admit, not one i'm necessarily very good at).

The irony in this might be that I am perfectly willing to agree that Family Guy is extremely lowbrow and lacking in many areas.

 

[CiG]

Also let me just admit that you're absolutely pushing the boundaries of my intellectual abilities with this line of thought!

My head hurts.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Yes, agreed. Actually I might say that I picked out your claim of objectivity because that boils down the debate of art's quality to a set of clinical methods and factors that empty the subject of its soul and passion. I do hate it when people just say "meh it's subjective" for the same reason I hate it when people boil it down to objective factors; it makes a debate of passions and personal experiences redundant.

I think that objectively measuring something is more prone to trampling the spirit of dialogue than subjectively measuring something is prone to.
Most times people say "meh it's subjective" do so out of laziness or even perhaps a certain insecurity over their own views or ability to convince or be convinced and I think many objectivists in relation to art (often conservatives) cling to this worldview out of a fear of the chaos and disorder that comes with a subjective art quality worldview. Both clearly have their legitimacy.

i like this and i think that's how i feel too now i think about it. just because i'm caught up in attacking the position that i see most commonly held by intelligent people doesn't mean i occupy the opposite extreme - i'm actually almost always in the centre of these things, but it's easy to get carried away down one side if you're not careful. kinda like how a lot of people here spend 99.9% of the time shitting on today's radical left (or bastardised version thereof), but i'm sure they feel just as negatively toward the extreme right, they just don't feel the need to argue against it because the badness of unopposed fascism is a lot more accepted and self-evident and doesn't have endless thinkpieces being written in support of it in the mainstream media - and sometimes people overcompensate for that i find. that's kind of how i feel about objectivity vs. subjectivity, the obsession with all opinions and interpretations etc being equal is way more rife in the circles i frequent (and in modern society in general i guess, it's a big part of what 'postmodernism' is about and why canons are getting torn down etc) so i spend more time thinking about how to combat it.

and yeah man i don't think i've stretched my brain this much in a while lol. that ache you get when you're out of shape and you first start lifting weights again, that's how my head's been feeling during this conversation.

 

[CiG]

I am notoriously shit at expressing my thoughts so I appreciate the delicacy with which you intellectually threw hammers at me.

just because i'm caught up in attacking the position that i see most commonly held by intelligent people doesn't mean i occupy the opposite extreme - i'm actually almost always in the centre of these things. kinda like how a lot of people here spend 99.9% of the time shitting on today's radical left (or bastardised version thereof), but i'm sure they feel just as negatively toward the extreme right, they just don't feel the need to argue against it because the badness of unopposed fascism is a lot more accepted and self-evident and doesn't have endless thinkpieces being written in support of it in the mainstream media. that's kind of how i feel about objectivity vs. subjectivity, the obsession with all opinions and interpretations etc being equal is way more rife in the circles i frequent.

So you've been brow-beaten by your friends into embodying the 'devil's advocate' archetype?

I honestly do value the objectivist worldview in regards to many different subjects, for example I've always been right on the edge of agreeing with moral objectivists and even sometimes debated points on their side even if deep down I wasn't completely convinced. I am less so now btw.

The flat surface with four legs attached isn't whatever you want it to be but whatever you need it to be and the utilitarian, objectivist worldview sides with the latter in that particular example whereas the subjective worldview leaves you staring at a chair/table trying your hardest not to see (or specifically not to admit) the practical use of the object.

I do admit that in many cases, subjectivity is impractical and frankly fucking retarded.

 

[Sophii]

If the thread hasn't derailed yet-

Most of the dreams I recall mostly come from night terrors/sleep paralysis. One of them helped spawn an alter ego within my music.

I awoke in a facility that had crafted iron rods and foundation for buildings being made with skinned, faceless bodies surrounding the floor. I would hear clattering of iron bars hitting steel sheets and conveyors. It felt like the room was heating in reality. In the distance I saw a tall, lanking figure dressed in white with blood splattered all over it; long red hair pushed down over the face. In the left hand it held a circular saw drenched in red.

That dream was over a decade ago.

I also find myself in a nexus when I sleep; its a crossroad in a neighborhood when I lived in Georgia. That helped me guide my dreams if I felt myself coming to something horrific in my dreams.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I had a somewhat brief dream where I was playing some unreleased Kirby RPG for the N64, which had a Super Mario 64 kind of perspective. It was about Kirby's origins and I started white (like the Kirby's Dream Land box art) and smaller, and unable to eat enemies, only able to float around and use the exhalation attack, but as I killed things I gained XP and learned how to eat smaller enemies like the boomerang-chuckers. There was some complicated fusion system where I could mix attacks but I ended up just exhaling on everything, including this first boss that was a ghost of a dog trapped in a potted plant, that would spit homing lightning balls at me. I found an exploit that allowed me to be out of range within the boss arena, and talk to this worried Waddle Dee NPC. I asked him what was the matter and he told me that the FBI was coming to search for child pornography on his computer and that he needed access to his office to delete the evidence if he was to avoid the FPMITAP. He told me he'd pay me 1000 gold if I found his missing key so I was like "Sure why not". Then I went back to the boss, killed him, and out came this apparition of MC Hammer doing the hammertime dance, only he was wearing a wizard hat and holding a stave. He then told me "Get too powerful and it's going to cause some shit for the world, Kirby", handed me the lost key, and faded into nothingness. Then I woke up.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I asked him what was the matter and he told me that the FBI was coming to search for child pornography on his computer and that he needed access to his office to delete the evidence

perplexing stuff, gonna have to bring in the dream interpreters for this one

 

[Einherjar86]

A couple weeks ago I had a dream in which I was standing up against a wall of a building with a group of friends--I think it was a school. All of the sudden there was a loud noise, like an explosion, but none of us could see anything. We ran around the corner of the building and there was a big lake with a dock. We ran out into the dock and looked into the water, and there was the carcass of a horse or deer in the water. It was stuck in shape as though petrified, but slimy like the flesh was melting off its body. As we leaned over the edge of the dock to look at it, it rolled over in the water exposing its underside. As this happened, its stomach split open and its guts and bunch of excrement spilled out. It stunk like hell. Then I woke up.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

A few nights ago I was lying down about 10 minutes ago just zoning out to some music when I drifted off and suddenly dreamt I was at a photo shoot with French porn queen Tabatha Cash. I wasn't taking the pictures, just happened to be off to the side. Tabatha was standing in front of a white backdrop in a black suit and looked immaculate. Then the phone rang and startled me back awake.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I just happened upon an animated gif of a gerbil watching something on a tablet, which reminded me of a dream I had today that I almost forgot.

I was applying for a job at some kind of large fancy biotech company and I entered an elevator up with Gordon Ramsey. When the door closed, he asked "How are you doing, love?" before immediately putting me into a chokehold and raping me on the floor. We exited, walking down this long glass corridor that connected two skyscrapers, and he told me that he'd like me to work for him, and that if I refused or told anyone about the event, a group of elite snipers were watching us every second and would blow my brains out. I agreed and told him I needed to get something from my car, which gave me an excuse to leave, and then I discovered/remembered I was at Balboa Park. I sauntered around the park a bit, a place I had been many times due to the zoo and various museums, reminiscing on my childhood and wondering if I had any reason to continue living. I then knew that I had to come forward with it, so I went to this massive, 10+ story parking garage at this airport and barricaded myself in at one corner. This is where Gordon Ramsey apparently realized I was turning on him, because there were now fighter jets deploying air strikes on my position. Recent arrivals at the airport cried out loud, old Japanese ladies attempted to deflect rubble with their silk umbrellas, some random porn star whose name I can't recall stripped off her shirt and promised me sex if I'd let her into my bunker, all to no avail. I then found a rocket launcher and began my counter-offensive, picking off jets as well as a fleet of tanks rolling towards my location. Soldiers marched up the stairs and flanked me, limiting my viewing distance. When I thought I was going to die but with honor, a newscaster approached me and gave me the opportunity to tell my story to the world. When I did, confetti and balloons erupted from the sky and a parade was called to celebrate my bravery as a survivor of rape. Then I woke up.

I don't know where the gerbil fit in the dream, but I kind of do.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I entered an elevator up with Gordon Ramsey. When the door closed, he asked "How are you doing, love?" before immediately putting me into a chokehold

A+

and you know exactly where that gerbil fits.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

I dreamt that it was illegal to eat garlic if you're a homosexual.

 

[Einherjar86]

There's some vampire iconography/symbolism slouching around in there...

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Had a dream a guy had his hand in my pocket trying for my wallet. I grabbed him around the neck and started biting the top of his head like a zombie. I woke up startled and bit down on my pillow like a maniac. It was bizarre and I had a good laugh later.

I've been doing shit like this a couple times a week lately. Like just jumping out of sleep/bed and running to the front door. Sometimes it takes a couple of minutes to snap out of it and get back to reality. benadryl might have something to do with it

 

[PrincessHades]

Once I had a dream where I was skateboarding while wearing a snorkel and goggles. I was overcome with the need to piss. I went to the bathroom, and I freaked out because all of the stalls were themed to sodas. For whatever reason it occured to me specifically that I needed to use the Mountain Dew stall which was hard to find. Finally, I found it. I woke up on the verge of pissing my pants.

 

[CF87]

I had a dream these bitches slipped on their own tampons and were decapitated by a black dildo, they were damned and there was no way to salvation, they turned back in human's dust, turned into dirt.

 

[PrincessHades]

Had a dream a guy had his hand in my pocket trying for my wallet. I grabbed him around the neck and started biting the top of his head like a zombie. I woke up startled and bit down on my pillow like a maniac. It was bizarre and I had a good laugh later.

I've been doing shit like this a couple times a week lately. Like just jumping out of sleep/bed and running to the front door. Sometimes it takes a couple of minutes to snap out of it and get back to reality. benadryl might have something to do with it

Good thing you were sleeping alone.

 

[Bloopy]

I dreamt I was at a fish 'n' chip cafe in rural New Zealand and bought the weirdest items they had, including two battered insects on sticks which I decided to eat first. I started with the head in one bite as that seemed less gross than nibbling on it. I can't recall ever dreaming a taste so vividly before. It was bizarre as you'd expect, but not bad. I was sitting outside, and an insect of the very same species flew over my head, and then another. They were big and chunky, surely traditional NZ chow I thought. They looked like a long moth (or possibly a locust but I didn't notice the hind legs), and they had little white owl-like faces. Their wings were folded in as they passed me, as if they were divebombing to express their disappointment. I cheekily waved one of the sticks at them and woke up drooling. Fairly weird as I've never eaten insects deliberately before.

 

[CF87]

I had this dream I died, my corpse was underneath my floor in a room in a wooden box, something came down from the ceiling and cut off my head, i was staring at my headless corpse

 

[Bloopy]

I had a scuba diving dream about diving to some sort of underwater tent with a wooden box where you collected an exclusive lapel pin just to feel elitist and show you'd been there. I either felt claustrophobic or my cylinder was running out, so I left early without my pin. Instead of a boat, I surfaced to a land rover or land cruiser parked in shallow water. I was inside it and intending to dive again when it started self-driving onto a motorway. I took control, having to drive it while standing up because it had ape hanger handlebars instead of a steering wheel. Found somewhere to turn around to drive back so the other divers wouldn't be lost at sea. I drove past some people talking about Santa and realised I was now wearing a Santa costume.