The Dreams Thread

just vaguely remembered i dreamt that hbb, a buddy and i were watching family guy and hbb was being really scornful about how bad it was. just stop being a snobby asshole and let me watch shitty cartoons please.

I think we're dream buddies now because I just woke up from a dream that I was on U-M in a thread about the most objectively artistically superior video games and obviously in credit to my superior taste, all the games people were listing were among my favorite games and you specifically called out Crusader: No Remorse and mentioned that an open source port was available that featured a full modding API, so I tried to find it and we ended up driving to my campus parking lot where there was this giant image of some shady warez site projected onto the night sky and after your password to get in failed I said fuck it and went inside my department's building to discover some kind of Illuminati/Bilderberg Group party being held during which I woke up.
 
I'm definitely a relativist when it comes to art, I've never heard a convincing argument for objectivity in the arts, not even from you:
:D
Rekt.

i plan to respond to this in more detail when i'm less tired, but my argument won't be dissimilar to the one your buddy jordan peterson's whole worldview is built on. relativism makes it impossible to construct meaning and without meaning there's chaos, for this reason it's in our psychological makeup to construct spectrums of value/metaphysical ideals independent of personal preference and measure shit against them, the self-identifying 'relativists' themselves do this which results in their sneaking ideology through the back door, even the act of espousing relativism is motivated by a subconscious denial of relativism, blah blah. exact same principle with aesthetic theory as with ethical theory, not least because the two have been mutually informing one another since dot.

and yeah i still think lovecraft's full of shit, although that was just a semantic argument. get a thousand people to describe mbv's vocals and not a single one will use the word 'charismatic'. the reason for that is that 'charismatic' is not a value judgement, it's a descriptive word which happens to be attached to a value judgement by common consensus. it's not used as a catch-all term for everything that's appealing, there are limits to which categories of appealing things fall under its umbrella.
 
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When it comes to art, relativism doesn't mean art is without meaning, it simply means that the art's meaning differs from individual to individual and since we're talking about the taste of individuals regarding music, this is the relevant context.

Jordan Peterson would imo agree that the quality of art regarding opinion vs opinion is subjective, however he would likely also say that when measuring the quality of art in relation to culture, the collective, it can be viewed objectively.

But great pieces of art that make up the foundations of civilization are not comparable to whether Family Guy is objectively good or crap.

Though if you wanted to go the Jordan Peterson route to buttress your opinion that Family Guy is objectively crap, you might be surprised to find that his worldview that you intend to co-opt actually proves you wrong. Family Guy has the fundamental archetypes and storytelling elements that have been with humanity since the beginning.

The father and the mother are together, the family dinner table gets used, they're religious to some degree except the animal which could be said to represent some kind of pagan symbolism, the coming together of poor and rich, the ignorance of adults to the voices of the young (they don't understand Stewie when he talks) etc. Going down that route would eventually force you to recognize that Family Guy has artistic objective value because it draws from the western canon in very basic ways and continues it on into updated contexts.

Hell, even though the creator is a card-carrying atheist type, his show features one God and it is the Christian God.
 
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i'll reply to this later as i disagree with bits of it, but my original point all along was that a post like that is always, 100% of the time, infinitely more useful and less pointless than "that's just yo opinion man i'm a relativist" ;)
 
I'd still be a relativist when it comes to art because the way I measure the value of art has nothing to do with a clinical brushstroke or a technically proficient guitarist but rather how it impacts me emotionally and how it interacts with my personal life experiences. Since that is the realm of the subjective, therefore I measure the quality of art subjectively.

I think the attempt to measure the quality of art objectively is in part due to the comfort that comes with having a baseline with which you can judge all things. It's the realm of the conservative minded.
 
I don't know that you can point to the presence of archetypes in Family Guy as evidence of its artistic merit. There is a thin line between 'archetype' and 'cliché' after all, and many of the archetypal elements of Family Guy are lifted wholesale from The Simpsons anyway. This isn't a criticism of Family Guy mind you, just of this particular line of reasoning.
 
The archetypes in The Simpsons are lifted from the western canon, so that's a pretty ridiculous thing to bring up.

The point is, if we're looking at the quality of art through a lens Jordan Peterson would use to judge the objective quality of Family Guy, rather than the subjective quality like is it funny, we would undoubtedly be drawn to its abilty to tap into the source of archetypal storytelling and fundamental western values which perpetuate the values of the west etc. If some piece of art keeps the western canon alive, it is in the Peterson lens objectively of good quality.

I'd think that would be rather obvious to someone who is familiar with the Peterson worldview.

If somebody thinks Family Guy is shit in the comedy department that's fine, but that's subjective and you cannot use the Peterson lens to prove that point.
 
I'm curious to know what parts of the western canon you think the archetypes in The Simpsons were lifted from. My understanding is that the show basically emerged as an answer to sitcoms of the time that centered on wholesome and functional families and so its central characters were, if not outright novel, at least heavily twisted versions of existing archetypes.
 
I thought about my last point and realized I may be conflating the idea of character archetypes in its more popular sense with Jungian archetypes. So let me put this differently.

You can identify most or all of the stages of the hero's journey as laid out by Joseph Campbell in many works of genre fiction. If they lack strengths in other regards, a critical audience would dismiss a lot of these stories as too derivative and formulaic to be of any interest. Are they of objectively high quality just because they have archetypes? I don't know that even JBP would make that claim. I've seen a lot of his videos and I can't remember one where he brings up the presence of archetypes as a marker of quality on its own.
 
You seem to be conflating the quality of an archetype and the quality of its portrayal with the inherent quality of simply keeping the archetypes alive in storytelling.

The former is what I would call subjective ("I thought Heston's portrayal of Moses was lacking" etc) and the latter is what I think Peterson would call an objective good for the culture ("Heston's portrayal of Moses helped to keep the character of Moses in the cultural conscience" etc) and therefore at the bare minimum containing some objective quality.

You simply need only look to the names of the main characters in The Simpsons to see just how much of it is lifted from the western canon. They even did a parody of Homer's Odyssey.

Here is a well-written piece on Jungian archetypes in The Simpsons for whoever is interested.

Back to Family Guy, one of the main Jungian archetypal events is present, 'the unity of opposites' in the form of wealthy Louis and poor Peter.
 
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When it comes to art, relativism doesn't mean art is without meaning, it simply means that the art's meaning differs from individual to individual and since we're talking about the taste of individuals regarding music, this is the relevant context.

Jordan Peterson would imo agree that the quality of art regarding opinion vs opinion is subjective, however he would likely also say that when measuring the quality of art in relation to culture, the collective, it can be viewed objectively.

i think peterson's whole worldview is founded on a denial of the traditional subjective/objective dichotomy you're presenting here, which is rooted in the essentialism of continental philosophy (basically the idea that there's a 'real world' outside of human perception, and our words are stand-ins for the essences of things in that world). he doesn't believe in an objective reality that we subjectively perceive and gesture toward through language, or at least not one that we have any access to or relationship with, but rather a 'practical reality' that arises out of the shared a priori biological, psychological and social structures underpinning human perception and existence, guiding how we separate the world into value-laden categories. it's a heideggerian kinda philosophy, and like heidegger he talks about that practical reality using metaphysical language which pisses off atheists like sam harris who think he's redefining words like 'truth' and 'god' (and for the sake of this discussion, 'objectivity') to suit his own ends, but he feels he's using them in the only way in which they can fully serve the purpose they're intended for, or perhaps any purpose at all in the modern world. and i think he's right, because the conventional way they're used (and i'm including the objectivity/subjectivity dualism in this) leads to confusion and an inability to clearly communicate, probably because it's rooted in misconceptions about language and perception.

this kind of thinking was the basis for wittgenstein's philosophy, who made similar arguments in his attempts to rid philosophy of concepts/dualisms/etc that were based in linguistic misconceptions which caused contradictions and prevented it from achieving clarity, but i think peterson got much of it from piaget. he kinda sets this out in his convo with tom amarque if you'd rather hear it from the man himself, but i'll try to briefly map it out here. so e.g., every person begins by categorising what it perceives in basic terms like *things that will alleviate my hunger when i put them in my mouth and things that won't* *things that will cause me pain when i touch them and things that won't* etcetc, and then those categories split into more sub-categories as your differentiation becomes more nuanced, etc. and each of these categorisations is done in order to guide action: things that will alleviate my hunger are things i will therefore eat, things that cause me pain are things i will not touch, etc. and because humans are social beings that must learn to coexist, language is the next step in this categorisation process, the difference being that the utility of mutual categorisation is limited to goals that are shared between those in the conversation.

what follows is that qualitative differentiation, even at its most complex, is guided by utility (usually an intersection between utility for the individual and utility for the group), because utility is all that causes us to construct categories of good and bad in the first place. and if this can apply to ethical systems, which most peterson fans seem to agree it does, it applies to artistic canons as well; the greatest art is that which guides the individual to act in ways that are good, with 'good' meaning ways that allow one to survive and successfully navigate existence and coexist with others doing the same etc -- the stuff every sane, functional human being desires. refer to it as something like universality and distinguish that from objective truth if you wish, but peterson doesn't do that and argues against it, i think because, as i said before, he denies the utility of using those words in that manner. but yeah, this approach to judging art is kind of implicit in his insistence that everybody should read and inhabit religious texts because they contain the deepest truth.

(an aside: harold bloom makes a similar case for shakespeare, and i highly recommend 'the invention of the human' to anyone who's interested in why such a range of different eras, critics and artists have been unable to remove him from the top of the canon despite often trying their hearts out - he actually argues to some extent that shakespeare wrote the modern human into existence, evolved us into more self-conscious beings when before our psychology was far more limited, almost triggering an evolutionary leap like the monolith in 2001 or something).

as for family guy, my whole approach toward art criticism is that you can use the same basic tools to evaluate cartoons as for shakespeare or anything else, and i'm totally on board with the idea that some so-called lowbrow stuff can be great art (this is one of the many good ideas that postmodernism brought into the mainstream, btw - postmodernism as JP describes it is full of good ideas, it's just destructive and absurd to adopt as a dogmatic ideology), it is indeed often dealing with the same ol' human themes at base. so i don't fully disagree with you here, i think you're right that family guy at its best does have at least some of exactly the sort of merit you're alluding to, i just think it hits those heights extremely inconsistently and its appeal is regularly rooted in stuff like novelty, gratuitous depravity, cliché (disposable/faulty archetypes?), narcissism, nihilism, shooting at easy targets in lazy ways etc, qualities that are usually associated with with bad art because they don't resonate or illuminate in useful ways.

no idea if this makes any sense at this hour but fuck it.
 
Fantastic read!

However, by the end your critique of Family Guy still seems to rest on subjectivity. Hence why you specifically said you think it is inconsistent with how and when it reaches the height of the merits discussed prior:
i think you're right that family guy at its best does have at least some of exactly the sort of merit you're alluding to, i just think it hits those heights extremely inconsistently

To this:
its appeal is regularly rooted in stuff like novelty, gratuitous depravity, cliché (disposable/faulty archetypes?), narcissism, nihilism, shooting at easy targets in lazy ways etc, qualities that are usually associated with with bad art because they don't resonate or illuminate in useful ways.

That last part strikes me as very vague, as if you're presenting something that is just a given. That there is nothing resonant or illuminating in Family Guy and I simply do not find that to be true, so you might want to expand on it.

I don't understand how Family Guy is especially narcissistic or nihilistic, much like The Simpsons the core of the show is always about the family remaining in tact, Peter and Louis constantly rediscovering each other's love and value etc etc.
Shooting at easy targets in lazy ways seems like something I'd prefer you elaborate on also because it comes across a might unreasonable.

Gratuitous depravity sure, but I think Bosch's art is also gratuitous and depraved so that in and of itself doesn't necessarily degrade the quality of art in any objective manner. Cliché I don't much agree with but I could be convinced.

Regardless, I do think comedy is not the best medium for staging a debate about whether the quality of art is objective or subjective due to the vagueries of laugh cues, instinct and so on that are so inherent to comedy.

I genuinely appreciate the gratuitous way in which Family Guy parodies and lampoons pop culture. It's lowbrow yes, it's turn your mind off and laugh content oftentimes but it is also a show which opens up to you the more you experience life, when I first watched it I'd wager 60% of the references and jokes went over my head and it's always interesting to me to go back and rewatch the first 10 seasons to see what I now understand where prior I didn't, that's a kind of value that not many other shows I've watched present.

To someone who already knew all the references of course that quality would be non-existent, which is why I'm, among other reasons, perfectly happy to accept that the quality of Family Guy (and by extension all art) is subjective.
 
Fantastic read!

However, by the end your critique of Family Guy still seems to rest on subjectivity. Hence why you specifically said you think it is inconsistent with how and when it reaches the height of the merits discussed prior

i think doesn't necessarily imply we're talking about something that's subjective though, just that i'm not sure whether i'm right or wrong. i.e. 'i think the earth is flat but i could maybe be convinced otherwise using evidence'. and that's essentially what you're doing with the rest of your post, backing up your position using evidence in an attempt to convince me i'm wrong. if artistic merit is subjective there's no point in doing this, there'd be no difference in validity between harold bloom's painstakingly explained 500 page declaration of love for shakespeare and the kid down the road who asserts that 'shakespeare sucks because it's gay'.

i wasn't really focused on making an airtight argument against family guy in my last post so much as throwing out some primitive starting points for how i might critique it in relation to utility, and i might wait until next time i watch it so i can note down some specific examples and try to give a proper explanation. i may just end up conceding that part of the argument though 'cause like i said before i really quite like it, it was a formative part of my teens and i still enjoy some bits very much, albeit while cringing at others. i actually find a lot of family guy haters hypocritical when they jerk off over stuff that's in many ways very similar (e.g. rick and morty most recently), and yeah, it's probably incoherent to adore the simpsons and not at least appreciate some aspects of family guy.

that might be another way of explaining my earlier thoughts actually: each opinion on an artwork is inherently compatible with certain other opinions and incompatible with others (so to give a silly example, the opinion that FOR VICTORY... is an incredible flawless album is incompatible with the opinion that THE IVTH CRUSADE is a relentlessly worthless appalling album, because there's so much overlap between those two albums that holding those two opinions simultaneously would be nonsensical). and this applies across the whole spectrum of existence, so there are moral stances (i.e. suicide is the ultimate good) that are incompatible with the set of goals which humans have evolved to desire to achieve, and those would prop up bad ethical systems, and there are stances on a particular artwork which are good or bad depending on whether they're compatible with good ethical systems or bad ones (peterson might offer 'the bible is completely worthless' as an example of the bad), and etc. whether or not you agree that this is true objectivity, i think peterson's fundamental argument is that achieving this kind of inner harmony between all our different values is the closest we can get to 'truth' or 'objectivity' or 'god' or whatever you want to call it.
 
I am entirely open to being convinced that you can objectively gauge the quality of art but I just can't get passed how art appeals to me almost entirely on an emotional and romantic level.

I'll have to think on this a little more I guess, but I can't help but feel unconvinced.

those would prop up bad ethical systems, and there are stances on a particular artwork which are good or bad depending on whether they're compatible with good ethical systems or bad ones (peterson might offer 'the bible is completely worthless' as an example of the bad), and etc. whether or not you agree that this is true objectivity, i think peterson's fundamental argument is that achieving this kind of inner harmony between all our different values is the closest we can get to 'truth' or 'objectivity' or 'god' or whatever you want to call it.

See, I perfectly understand what you're describing here but I just don't see how it connects to Family Guy as objectively bad.
Surely the core point of Family Guy is mockery, speaking truth to power, lampooning, satire etc and that is something that would I think be perceived as objectively good and objectively ethical, no?

And why I see your critique of Family Guy (and any similar examples) as subjective is because you admit Family Guy does all these things, albeit of a lower quality generally speaking.

there'd be no difference in validity between harold bloom's painstakingly explained 500 page declaration of love for shakespeare and the kid down the road who asserts that 'shakespeare sucks because it's gay'.

Well no, because you can objectively measure the quality of a critique or an analysis of art which can still be subjective itself.
 
i do get where you're coming from for the record 'cause i militantly held the same position for many years, and i don't know that i stopped holding that position so much as started using a different definition of 'quality'/'good'/'bad' etc, so it's probably a semantic argument at base. it's pretty similar to what i recall of the argument harris and peterson had on 'truth', where if you unpack it it really just boils down to their using different definitions of truth because they have different ideas about how words ought to be defined, how language works or should work, etc. it might be better to view my argument as being less about objectively assessing artistic quality and more about which ways of discussing art are useful and which are useless, 'cause that's the feeling that provoked my comment in the first place.

i mean i'm sure we're probably in agreement that, regardless of how correct it is, 'lets just agree to disagree because quality is subjective' 'ok' is never a particularly useful conversation to have. there's an assumption when entering into any debate that you're gonna be able to convince the other person to change their perspective, which assumes there's a consensus set of values/goals between us that we can appeal to in order to do that convincing. and because there's always that consensus to some extent due to our being human beings with similar biology/psychology/language/basic experiences/etc, there's always the possibility of having your viewpoint changed if you're open to it--there's always the possibility that you'll learn that your opinion is incompatible with who you are, in a sense. so there's never a situation where playing the 'everything is subjective so let's agree to disagree' card isn't counter-productive, because we always come at everything from a place of partial consensus and partial disagreement, and debating with those who are partly similar and partly different is how learning occurs. maybe that's a better way of articulating my stance on this: the argument 'artistic quality is subjective' goes against the spirit of dialogue itself, so it's always useful to behave as though it's incorrect. i think that's what a lot of peterson's arguments boil down to as well.

as for what you say about family guy, i think what's good/ethical/etc is incredibly complex and never hinges on the mere presence of a few overarching modes like that (i realise i did a similarly shallow critique of FG in the first place and that's what you're responding to, but with these posts i've mostly just been arguing for the principle of it - that, in principle, one could write hundreds of pages analysing in detail how family guy is or is not compatible with objective good as i described it, and reach a conclusion supported well enough that it would convince any sane person of adopting its position). you're right that i haven't made a good argument about why family guy is objectively bad so there's no real need to defend the show until i do tbh. broad declarations are never enough and that's kind of why art criticism has become an artform in itself: mapping out the reasons why an artwork may be worthy or unworthy is a hell of a difficult, elaborate process (and, i'll freely admit, not one i'm necessarily very good at).
 
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