the dynamite politics thread

Oh, please do. I wish I could take the place of any one American who's not going to vote, so don't be that American. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for (but isn't it obvious?), just that I'll buy your weight in beverage of choice if we ever meet if you do! ;)

this post is actually illegal. :lol:
 
Even if I don't discriminate based on the candidate? What's wrong with rewarding civic duty with lots of alcohol? :p

Well, I kind of wish Obama would win too (eventhough I really like Palin, she's total fun), so I will let that one pass for now. :p
 
But people here think things are so good
because they all have cell phones that will make them pancakes for breakfast.
Maybe I won't vote that way I'll have no reason to complain about whatever happens

That's like verbatim almost of one of George Carlin's HBO specials haha, it's true though
 
Not voting equals giving up your only chance to affect the outcome, aka letting dumber people than you choose for you.
Also the word "idiot" comes from the ancient greek word ἰδιώτης (idiōtēs), which means "private person" and was used for people who didn't get involved in public affairs (eg by voting) and cared only for their private matters.
That's why i always vote, even when i know that all the candidates suck.

By the way, i'm wondering what are the real chances of Obama to be elected, what with him being black and all.

But voting for one leader you don't necessarily like adds to the problem because it makes them more appealing to others
 
Concerning Palin, I actually agree she's more fun than a barrel of monkeys, but I have this thing where I don't much like criminals to hold too high a position of power, so I'd stop at Alaska for her. ;)

@firewindraging: not voting as a means of showing disapproval works best in smaller communities, where very high abstension makes the appointed people virtually unable to rule. According to Wikipedia, in 2004 59% of the population turned up for the election in the USA: that's more than 122 million people. No single person - or even organization - can hope to compete just by staying home, so however reasonable your rationale behind not voting can be, you're accomplishing nothing at all.
 
about the voting versus nonvoting debate, i agree with rahvin.

as for palin, no, i didn't mean funny as in hypocritical, i meant funny as in "oh wow things happen in this woman's life".

also, maybe i'm being too much of a crypto-feminist here, but i really respect someone who manages to raise a large family and hold office at the same time. it's a very demanding life and i believe we do need more women like her, irrespective of their politics. i mean - nobody's really surprised if a male politician has a lot of kids, as his wife is automatically assumed to care for them, but for female politicians normally that would be considered a hindrance, because popular culture (and there's traces of that even in America, according to what I read on some forums) still believes that "Oh noes if you have kids you need to stay home and cook for them otherwise you're EVIL".

The very fact that she's been dubbed an irresponsible mother because her daughter got pregnant... Matse is right, do these critics really believe that parents the world over are effectively able to control their offspring's sex lives? Most people I know had unprotected sex at least once when they were teenagers, and their parents had zilch to do with that. Parents can teach one about condoms all they want, but teenagers are still going to be teenagers, and do whatever sounds "cool" or interesting at the moment. If we're looking for a dickhead in that story, we should look toward either the boy or the girl, whoever suggested first that sex without a rubber is more pleasurable/you can't get pregnant on your first time/coitus interruptus really really works or any other teenage idiocy. And anyway what's the big deal? These people are having a kid. Ok. Millions of people are doing the same. Get over it.

And rahvin, you're just mad because of the polar bears, admit it. :p
 
Don't vote for McCain, he's a cylon, I have proof!

McCainCylon.png
 
But voting for one leader you don't necessarily like adds to the problem because it makes them more appealing to others
But it's not like they will go away anyway.. So perhaps voting for the least worst is the best.



edit:
@rahvin: criminal? what did i miss?

hyena said:
also, maybe i'm being too much of a crypto-feminist here, but i really respect someone who manages to raise a large family and hold office at the same time.
But come on, it was in Alaska. I mean, how much can really happen there? :p
 
@rahvin: criminal? what did i miss?

Allegedly abused her power in the case mentioned in the article. Considering this piece of news also appeared in The Washington Post (can't link because you need to login to read it), a newspaper that can hardly be accused of being Democratic-leaning, I find it PRET-TY interesting. :p
Of course I was exaggerating... but I like 'em as clean as they come, and since this is just the start (and she's been in office in Alaska for a mere 20 months!), it certainly doesn't bode well.
 
@Hyena: IMO it was never about her daughter having a kid. Its about the Republican party calling teenage pregnancy reprehensible in the case of millions of average people, but when its their VP suddenly its STOP THAT'S HER PRIVATE BUSINESS, FAMILY IS OFF LIMITS. That's hypocrisy. In this circumstance its not necessarily Palin or her family, its the republican media and party.

Credible or not, a recent episode of Jon Stewart's Daily Show comes to mind. All he did was pull clips from some months ago to a few days ago and the hypocrisy evidenced was hilarious. For example, some pundit accused Hillary Clinton of being whiny and not "being able to play with the big boys" in a very condescending tone. Now that the republican VP is a woman, suddenly "she is faced with something no woman should have to endure... the overbearing sexism of politics" [paraphrased, not exact quotes but if you want to check it out for yourself, its probably online]. Its the rest of the party and the pundits that make her VP look like a joke, not the woman herself.
 
Now that the republican VP is a woman, suddenly "she is faced with something no woman should have to endure... the overbearing sexism of politics" [paraphrased, not exact quotes but if you want to check it out for yourself, its probably online]. Its the rest of the party and the pundits that make her VP look like a joke, not the woman herself.

Well, I'm listening to Life of Agony so I cannot really be taken seriously, but this - admittedly perplexing and slightly disreputable - turn of events has good consequences. In my country, economically harmful left-wing labour laws couldn't be changed by the right, but the left managed to change them alright, as they could relate to the unions better. On the contrary, the left-wing government could not pass legislation on civil unions as it was shot down by the right, but now it seems that the right is proposing a bill, and if it does I guess it will pass with little clamor.

What I'm trying to say is that if you have to get rid of evil x (restrictive laws that harm the economy, anti-gay discrimination etc) you are more likely to succeed if you actually represent the people who are most affected by it, as you will have at least a part of your own people following you, and you won't have trouble with the opposition, as they'd been against evil x all along.

So if a Democrat wages war against sexism he's going to have all other Democrats rallying around him, but the Republicans will oppose him, or merely adopt a tutting attitude, because - guess what? - he's a Democrat. On the other hand, if Republicans finally speak out against sexism, they will get support from everyone, except the most backwards among their own rank. The same exact kind of positive effect would be attained if, say, the Democrats spoke out against excessive government intervention in the economy - almost everyone would agree, except for the most liberal/socialist among their own ranks.
 
On the other hand, if Republicans finally speak out against sexism, they will get support from everyone, except the most backwards among their own rank.

Considering that McCain voted against equal pay for equal work in the past legislature, it is a little perplexing to imagine that he would have suddenly seen the light.
On the other hand, the whole thing might have been a long-term strategy to get a cheap VP. ;)
 
Allegedly abused her power in the case mentioned in the article. Considering this piece of news also appeared on The Washington Post (can't link because you need to login to read it), a newspaper that can hardly be accused of being Democratic-leaning, I find it PRET-TY interesting. :p
Of course I was exaggerating... but I like 'em as clean as they come, and since this is just the start (and she's been in office in Alaska for a mere 20 months!), it certainly doesn't bode well.

Glad I'm not the only one that caught that.

I really can't take the whole pick at face value ... it all reeks so much of tokenism (word?) to me.

Although I'd have to agree with your last point there Hyena... it's making such an impression simply because it's the last thing people expected them to do.

~kov.
 
The sad thing is nothing will change no matter who is elected this year
promises made are promises to be broken

Ron Paul is the man I support and donate money,
in hopes for change in the future
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

The thing I want in a president, is what is said on every episode of Monty Pythons Flying Circus

*And now for something completely different*
 
The sad thing is nothing will change no matter who is elected this year
promises made are promises to be broken

Wait, I have more:

- A penny saved is a penny earned
- Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise
- Don't look a gift horse in the mouth

See, the good thing about platitudes is that you don't have to think before you speak, because somebody already did it for you!
So hooray for platitudes and the peace of mind they bring: we can finally sit contented in the comfort of the knowledge that nothing whatsoever is in any way our responsibility.

*And now for something completely different*

You should elect a tapir. Tapirs are completely different from politicians when it comes to meaningful things such as number of limbs, eating habits and, in some cases, even IQ.
 
Considering that McCain voted against equal pay for equal work in the past legislature, it is a little perplexing to imagine that he would have suddenly seen the light.

Well, I'm not a McCain fan so I'm not rushing to defend the man here. Two considerations, though.

One, it doesn't really matter whether he, personally, is more or less old-fashioned. Given that he's, what?, 75 I'm sure he is not particularly progressive in his views toward the advancement of women in society. Still, the larger Republican public is seeing that it is acceptable to choose someone other than a middle-aged or elderly white man for a role of leadership. Granted, these processes go both ways, and McCain picked Palin because he anticipated that it would go down well with his audience; but, as Kov said, people didn't really see it coming, which means that in the conservative camp it's still a bit of a novelty. Independent of who wins, this sets precedent: and yeah, Geraldine Ferraro was precedent too, but this is different. Ferraro was a Democrat, the cultural barrier was less impenetrable, even back in the day. If the right-wing public are now more willing to accept women in office, then more power to McCain, even if I don't really like him.

As for the equal work for equal pay story, well, here I have a technical rather than political opinion. The American economy is way more market- and profit-oriented than the economies we are used to in Europe, which means that the connection between an employee's performance and the salary that the employer is willing to pay is more significant. In our country, employers are so constrained by unions and legislation that they cannot really discriminate (in the neutral sense) between different employees, so they have to pay a lot of money for people who do little, and they cut their costs by being utter dicks and under-paying women of childbearing age*. It's way simpler in the US. If someone doesn't bring you money, you let them go, man or woman. If someone brings you a lot of money, you pay them more, man or woman. In this sense, the equal pay for equal work idea is akin to our collective contract legislation - pointless hindrance which is eventually going to be a burden on the economy. In this sense, I don't hold a grudge against anyone for voting against it. I think that I myself would vote against it, despite being a woman.

*If this appears to make no sense whatsoever, note that in the private sector there is a big gap - at least in my country - between unionized workers and non-unionized workers. Unionized = middle-aged and mostly male. Non-unionized = young. Young people don't join unions because unions don't do shit for them, due to a chronic lack of money, too much of which was spent on protecting the privileges of the middle-aged. So basically a young woman who applies for work is going to be turned down lest she accept some informal/illegal arrangement involving either "When you get pregnant you're out of here" or smaller pay compared to her male colleague, but she grins and bears it, as it's better than no work. Of course, if we had a real market for goods and services this would not happen. Like, ever. That's why we mostly have this in the South.
 
Consideration #1: I think it matters. It probably wouldn't if we were talking about the kind of position of power where the person who's in charge is little more than a figurehead to embody values and decisions of a group, but this is not the case: as Terry Pratchett would put it, in the "One Man One Vote" system, if McCain is elected President he is the Man and his is the Vote. And he's voted against the advancement of women in society before. Something I believe he'll be inclined to do again, when and where it would matter, at least in the sense of having consequences of the kind he hopes for. The right-wing public might even be less prejudiced against women as time goes by - it seems reasonable to assume that customs change in time regardless of how reluctant most individuals who witness that change are to embrace it - but specific decisions in the next four years are, in my opinion, about as likely to be in favor as against the change in point with Palin as VP. The same is not true if you substitute "with McCain as President": in that case I think his personal history - of voting and decision making, or at least "decision contributing" if you will - shows that specific decisions in the next four years are likelier to be against.

Consideration #2: Aside from the fact that I don't really see the hindrance in avoiding discrimination based on gender (existence of a norm vs. non-existence of said norm does not imply bureaucracy: that the fewer the rules the faster human activities are is often a misconception), I contend that the conclusions you reach are based on a virtual model of that aspect of the economic system in the USA. Namely that the ratio between salary and performance is unaffected by any legal or illegal consideration other than the profit motive. I think it's up to the federal government to decide which is which, and I also consider this a rather clean-cut case of one that should be deemed illegal: discrimination based on gender is explicitly forbidden by several already existing rules.