The "Education" Thread

I also have a BA in Philosophy and I'm vicariously exposed to what a Fine Arts degree requires and produces.

And you avoided all that in your graduate study. Probably a good thing...

How can you state that Freud was perceptive unless we can test the thing perceived? I'm not saying it's not possible that there is"latent content" to dreams, but there's currently no way to empirically access it. Furthermore, there's little difference between "latent content from the subconscious" and "divine origin" theories other than the supplanting of the divine with an equally unfalsifiable base (a predictable development as per Nietzsche).

You're doing it again--i.e. treating Freud as a psychologist or philosopher of mind. That's not why he's relevant to literary critics and other humanities scholars. The structure that Freud attributed to the mind makes more sense if you apply it to a text. Of course, it's ridiculous to think of a mind as a text. What I'm saying is that Freud's methodology has a lot to say about hermeneutics, mimesis, metaphor, etc. These are literary phenomena, not elements of cognitive functioning. Freud hypothesized that there are different levels of meaning in human psyche, but all these levels were somehow textually operative (Lacan underscores this point); this is most likely not the case. However, literary scholars began to notice that Freud's schema could explain variability or contradiction in literary texts by exposing discrete scales of meaning (the most famous version of this in literary studies is probably Jameson's political unconscious). On the level of language itself, the phrase "her world was coming apart" has multiple meanings, even without context; and these meanings form a system that goes beyond mere realism (which, in this case, would mean that this person's world was literally coming apart). In fact, some literary scholars have empirically observed and tested this notion by reading other cultural texts from certain periods, like religious pamphlets, or political tracts, or scientific treatises, etc. Values of textual representation change over time, but adapting Freud's ideas to literary meaning can be quite illuminating (and it doesn't have to be all penises and horny sons, so I'd urge you to resist that temptation--pun intended).

And finally, please don't restrict perceptivity and value to what we can empirically see. You of all people know how fucking weak visuality is when you start to put pressure on it. When it comes to the sciences, then yes--observation is necessary and valuable. That doesn't mean that non-empirical practices aren't valuable or intellectual. There was no way to empirically see the value in discovering the Higgs Boson, but that doesn't mean the project was worthless.

I didn't say Victorian art was a pinnacle, but juxtaposed to most of what came after it, it is far superior to the amateurish spatterings of paint or grotesque amalgams of various materials that pass for skilled products. It's as if artists decided to reset to the equivalent of etching on the inside of caves or dancing around a fire (performance art!). It doesn't have to be "life affirming" though. John Martin is one of my favorite artists if not favorite and his artwork was far more tragic than affirming. But it captured broadly human condition, with all its concomitant fears, awe, tragedy, and occasional tranquility. It's arguable that Victorian Art was regression from the more classically inspired predecessors in terms of content if not technique as the scope of human experience represented was reduced. Acclaimed modern art appears to represent nothing but the nihilistic emptiness of both the individual producer and the small echo chamber of admirers. Nietzsche predicted, but did not condone.

It's not superior, that's where you're basing everyone entirely on your tired notion of craft and skill. Kerry James Marshall is actually an incredibly talented artist. He can draw/paint in a realist mode, but he chooses not to. Why is that? Does it just mean he's a bad artist? He's clearly talented, but you don't know that because you don't know anything about him beyond a cursory Google search. So why does he choose to paint in a less realist mode? Is it because he's tapping into a variant of African imagery? Is he channeling an interwar modernist style that privileged expression over anatomical accuracy? Is it because he sees anatomical accuracy as indicative of (or at least related to) medical practices that categorize blacks as hierarchically inferior to whites?

Does any of this cross your mind? No, you look at the pictures and think "That's not pretty." Deep, bro.

I've never read McCarthy but I assume his ability to craft a story is decent based on the movie adaptation of No Country for Old Men. I'm sympathetic to deontology but Kant was a bad writer :p.

Kant was a bad writer. Has it occurred to you that the criteria for good/bad writing changes depending on the mode/genre of writing? Again, seemingly no.
 
Last edited:
And you avoided all that in your graduate study. Probably a good thing...

You're doing it again--i.e. treating Freud as a psychologist or philosopher of mind. That's not why he's relevant to literary critics and other humanities scholars. The structure that Freud attributed to the mind makes more sense if you apply it to a text. Of course, it's ridiculous to think of a mind as a text. What I'm saying is that Freud's methodology has a lot to say about hermeneutics, mimesis, metaphor, etc. These are literary phenomena, not elements of cognitive functioning. Freud hypothesized that there are different levels of meaning in human psyche, but all these levels were somehow textually operative (Lacan underscores this point); this is most likely not the case. However, literary scholars began to notice that Freud's schema could explain variability or contradiction in literary texts by exposing discrete scales of meaning (the most famous version of this in literary studies is probably Jameson's political unconscious). On the level of language itself, the phrase "her world was coming apart" has multiple meanings, even without context; and these meanings form a system that goes beyond mere realism (which, in this case, would mean that this person's world was literally coming apart). In fact, some literary scholars have empirically observed and tested this notion by reading other cultural texts from certain periods, like religious pamphlets, or political tracts, or scientific treatises, etc. Values of textual representation change over time, but adapting Freud's ideas to literary meaning can be quite illuminating (and it doesn't have to be all penises and horny sons, so I'd urge you to resist that temptation--pun intended).

And finally, please don't restrict perceptivity and value to what we can empirically see. You of all people know how fucking weak visuality is when you start to put pressure on it. When it comes to the sciences, then yes--observation is necessary and valuable. That doesn't mean that non-empirical practices aren't valuable or intellectual. There was no way to empirically see the value in discovering the Higgs Boson, but that doesn't mean the project was worthless.

I wouldn't have minded doing graduate philosophy, but it wouldn't translate into a career I wanted. Maybe I'll revisit it later on when I'm financially established. But now you're in the realm of the textual (which is obviously your area) rather than staying in the Fine Arts, which is what I was talking about. Maybe there's some application to literature in marxist and Freudian thought, and maybe the nuance rises above the swift, vulgar characterization of both, but you're assuming that Fine Arts (visual arts) professors or graduate students understand this literature bound nuance and can separate what applies to the written word alone from what may or may not apply to the visual arts. Additionally, assuming empirical validation of a literary theory - this is an is which does not provide the apparent political and culture packaged ought that comes with it.

It's not superior, that's where you're basing everyone entirely on your tired notion of craft and skill. Kerry James Marshall is actually an incredibly talented artist. He can draw/paint in a realist mode, but he chooses not to. Why is that? Does it just mean he's a bad artist? He's clearly talented, but you don't know that because you don't know anything about him beyond a cursory Google search. So why does he choose to paint in a less realist mode? Is it because he's tapping into a variant of African imagery? Is he channeling an interwar modernist style that privileged expression over anatomical accuracy? Is it because he sees anatomical accuracy as indicative of (or at least related to) medical practices that categorize blacks as hierarchically inferior to whites?

Does any of this cross your mind? No, you look at the pictures and think "That's not pretty." Deep, bro.

So he's wasting his talent so he can be "deep". My kids naturally privilege expression over accuracy - but it's cute in a 5 year old. Tapping into heritage puts him in danger of producing mere artifacts, not art (another absurd theoretical issue in visual arts. "Artifacts" would be far more preferable). I fail to see how anatomical accuracy is related to inferiorizing blacks, when it is the caricatures which inferiorize (i.e. - political cartoons exaggerating the lips and ears of Obama). What is more likely is that he is playing the Visual Arts version of the game Foucault referred to when asked why his writing was opaque. There is this subset of the population which finds bullshit "deep" and if you want success you have to appeal to them. No product is too grotesque as long as you have a "deep" reason for making it so. It's the inverse of the reason why Fox News is popular with a different subset of the population - they offer bullshit as "common sense". In neither case is the product good.

Kant was a bad writer. Has it occurred to you that the criteria for good/bad writing changes depending on the mode/genre of writing? Again, seemingly no.

I'm unsure where I started critiquing writing styles until just now when mentioning Foucault.
 
Disagreeing with an interpretation and refusing to be entirely drawn off topic is now dodging.

Lombroso was himself a product of the then very popular physiognomy movement in the sciences. Why should Marshall oblige a racist and currently, nay long discredited understanding of phenotypic expression? Equivocally, the art world should suggest blacks engage in cotton picking for white cotton farmers, and eating of chicken and watermelon exclusively as a form of protest! I'm sure there's some deep meaning I'm too dumb and uneducated to grasp. Probably has something to do with my phenotypic features.
 
Disagreeing with an interpretation and refusing to be entirely drawn off topic is now dodging.

But now you're in the realm of the textual (which is obviously your area) rather than staying in the Fine Arts, which is what I was talking about. Maybe there's some application to literature in marxist and Freudian thought, and maybe the nuance rises above the swift, vulgar characterization of both, but you're assuming that Fine Arts (visual arts) professors or graduate students understand this literature bound nuance and can separate what applies to the written word alone from what may or may not apply to the visual arts.

You said this "psychobabble" has gotten worse since your wife had to sign up for English courses. English is in the humanities. That's dodging.

So he's wasting his talent so he can be "deep". My kids naturally privilege expression over accuracy - but it's cute in a 5 year old. Tapping into heritage puts him in danger of producing mere artifacts, not art (another absurd theoretical issue in visual arts. "Artifacts" would be far more preferable). I fail to see how anatomical accuracy is related to inferiorizing blacks, when it is the caricatures which inferiorize (i.e. - political cartoons exaggerating the lips and ears of Obama). What is more likely is that he is playing the Visual Arts version of the game Foucault referred to when asked why his writing was opaque. There is this subset of the population which finds bullshit "deep" and if you want success you have to appeal to them. No product is too grotesque as long as you have a "deep" reason for making it so. It's the inverse of the reason why Fox News is popular with a different subset of the population - they offer bullshit as "common sense". In neither case is the product good.

He's wasting his talent because he makes an artistic choice to draw in a manner that doesn't please you visually? The choice itself isn't part of the artistic process? I suppose it would be more artistic if he didn't think at all about what he drew and just imitated the old white masters like Da Vinci or Peter Paul Reubens.

Your kid naturally privileges expression over accuracy because s/he's five fucking years old. It's cute because s/he can't do anything else. Making you should try to think differently about the artistic inclinations in an adult.

Lombroso was himself a product of the then very popular physiognomy movement in the sciences. Why should Marshall oblige a racist and currently, nay long discredited understanding of phenotypic expression? Equivocally, the art world should suggest blacks engage in cotton picking for white cotton farmers, and eating of chicken and watermelon exclusively as a form of protest! I'm sure there's some deep meaning I'm too dumb and uneducated to grasp. Probably has something to do with my phenotypic features.

Oh, right, Lombroso has been discredited! Good point. Charles A. fucking Murray then. Or the fact that black patients are less likely than whites to receive pain medication because they have a hardier constitution, or some such bullshit.

I'm unsure where I started critiquing writing styles until just now when mentioning Foucault.

Dodging.
 
You said this "psychobabble" has gotten worse since your wife had to sign up for English courses. English is in the humanities. That's dodging.

The arguments/citations are the same. As in bad samely.

He's wasting his talent because he makes an artistic choice to draw in a manner that doesn't please you visually? The choice itself isn't part of the artistic process? I suppose it would be more artistic if he didn't think at all about what he drew and just imitated the old white masters like Da Vinci or Peter Paul Reubens.

Your kid naturally privileges expression over accuracy because s/he's five fucking years old. It's cute because s/he can't do anything else. Making you should try to think differently about the artistic inclinations in an adult.

The fact that you equivocated Murray to Lombroso and childish visual art reproduction shows a lack of serious/independent introspection and scientific knowledge. I don't expect your knowledge of social science to be high because it's not your field but I expect you to acknowledge that failing. Otherwise, don't be disappointed at the failings of academia, because you are complicit. I do have different expectations of the artistic inclinations of an adult vs a child, which apparently you don't. Apparently I'm somehow a racist for thinking a black person can supersede the abilities of a child. Apparently you don't and denigrate me for thinking otherwise, you racist. You're mad now because you think I'm being racist rather than understanding how I'm using your logic logically to shove your racism in your face. Your racism is your problem you can't admit. I am married to a very phenotypically dark woman who is watching me type this sentence and can read all of what I have written as well as your comments and thinks you are racist as fuck. Like her professors.

Oh, right, Lombroso has been discredited! Good point. Charles A. fucking Murray then. Or the fact that black patients are less likely than whites to receive pain medication because they have a hardier constitution, or some such bullshit.

Blacks have differences in pain reporting than whites. Of course you don't know that. Because it doesn't align with Lacan or some shit.
 
I do have different expectations of the artistic inclinations of an adult vs a child, which apparently you don't. Apparently I'm somehow a racist for thinking a black person can supersede the abilities of a child. Apparently you don't and denigrate me for thinking otherwise, you racist.

Haha, "you racist."

Here's the logic of what you said. You implied that the extent of an artwork lies purely in the image that appears on the canvas, hence how someone like Marshall can waste his talent by painting "bad" art. But his decision to paint differently is part of the artistic process. Your five-year-old doesn't have the intellectual capacity to make that decision.

I am acknowledging a difference between your child and K.J. Marshall. You were conflating them by saying that all that matters is what they put on the canvas--basically denying Marshall his choice of technique, despite the fact that he has mastered many.

You're mad now because you think I'm being racist rather than understanding how I'm using your logic logically to shove your racism in your face. Your racism is your problem you can't admit. I am married to a very phenotypically dark woman who is watching me type this sentence and can read all of what I have written as well as your comments and thinks you are racist as fuck. Like her professors.

I actually never accused you of being racist, nor was that ever my intention; although I certainly can see how the abrasiveness of my comments might seem like I was implying racism. I wasn't trying to say you were racist for characterizing Marshall the way you do. I was trying to say you have a very limited and myopic understanding of how art works and what it is. I don't know exactly what your wife wants to do with her art degree, but it sounds like that may not have been the right choice for her. If all she wants to do is the craft side of things, you don't really need an art degree for that. Does she want to teach art to undergrads? If so, she'll need a graduate degree, and you can bet on more of the same psychobabble there. Does she want to teach art to kids in primary and secondary school? If that's the case, she should probably be going for a degree in education, and from there she can take selectively fewer courses on art, hence avoiding the psychobabble.

I'm not going to defend the racism of her professors. If you say they are, then I have no choice but to take you at your word. But the fact that you turned this into a blame game, when that's not what I was accusing you of, makes me think that racism is on your mind more than it is mine.

Blacks have differences in pain reporting than whites. Of course you don't know that. Because it doesn't align with Lacan or some shit.

Surveys have shown that many white doctors/med students also believe black bodies handle pain differently than white bodies, and have used this belief to justify prescribing lower doses of pain meds.
 
Last edited:
The last sentence in that story, "They just need better schools", pretty much sums it up. You can't stick students years behind academically with those on track without either causing the former to struggle or lowering standards.

The comments on the article are pretty damning as well if true, which a quick Google seems to confirm (e.g. the bit about standards dropping significantly in order to attain better graduation rates).
 
that line is so strange. the article talks about how its impossible to have enough good schools yet people want the solution to be "better schools"
 
For teaching to improve overall, you basically need 1-2 kids from every classroom to go on to become better teachers than the teachers who taught them. Pretty unrealistic. One way I see that happening is for said students to become more highly educated than their own teachers (which doesn't necessarily mean they'll be better teachers, but more knowledgeable). Again unrealistic since we have higher levels of student loan debt than ever before, which is scaring off the more brilliant potential teachers into other careers. Can students learn from their teachers' mistakes? Perhaps but they have to be very conscious and critical of themselves, a quality not everyone has and they're likely to repeat the same mistakes. The current educational agenda of funneling more and more money into administration to put even more pressure on the teachers is not working, it's creating a system in which many teachers simply pass poor performing students so it looks better for themselves on annual performance reviews.

The solutions I propose are:

1) elimination of student loan debt after an equal number of years of teaching to your years of education. If you've taught 4 years of undergrad students, you should have your own 4 years of undergrad paid for.

2) elimination of all but the most critical administrative positions, they serve little to no purpose as far as students are concerned and in fact are hiking up tuition costs and inspiring dishonest grading policies.

3) a return to allowing people to fail. Give them a second chance, sure, them send them off to another school for a third chance. There should be no incentive for teachers to pass poorly performing students. If we are going to evaluate fairness of the instructors, perhaps have their peers in the same department evaluate the difficulty level of their exams, and ask them to tone them down to some standard if they are too difficult. There should be no pressure from administrators who have little knowledge of the subject being taught.

4) yearly bonuses to teachers if they show some meaningful attempt at self improvement. If they are attending further classes in their field, or in educational techniques, or conducting research, they should be rewarded.
 
The idea of dream analysis is one of Freud's major contributions to modern western thought, so it's hard to see both dream analysis and Freud himself so vapidly dismissed itt.

Dreams are not random or meaningless processes, there's something in dreams that are informative at the very least and Freud's method for extracting out from the dream what the dream purported to represent is outlined in great detail in The Interpretation of Dreams, possibly the only essential book he ever published in my opinion.

Freud is one of those thinkers of which all that has been left behind are his mistakes and thus people are too comfortable and blasé about dismissing him and the reason for that is because all that he discovered and put forward is so entrenched in our culture now that we think it's self-evident.

Everything correct has been assimilated so-to-speak and everything wrong hangs over Freud's corpse like moss on a water's surface, yet his bones have sunken and now the cultures of the pond populate his bone structures without even knowing it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Einherjar86
that line is so strange. the article talks about how its impossible to have enough good schools yet people want the solution to be "better schools"

No one wants to admit that the ultimate source of the problem is with the family.
 
sounds like they want to start funneling kids ala Germany tbh. Having a 'choice' for HS/MS is insane to me. Only option we had was the private catholic schools that Ein probably went too (har har) -- don't get how there are more than 1 option for public schools
 
The idea of dream analysis is one of Freud's major contributions to modern western thought, so it's hard to see both dream analysis and Freud himself so vapidly dismissed itt.

Dreams are not random or meaningless processes, there's something in dreams that are informative at the very least and Freud's method for extracting out from the dream what the dream purported to represent is outlined in great detail in The Interpretation of Dreams, possibly the only essential book he ever published in my opinion.

Freud is one of those thinkers with which all that has been left behind are his mistakes and thus people are too comfortable and blasé about dismissing him and the reason for that is because all that he discovered and put forward is so entrenched in our culture now that we think it's self-evident.

Everything correct has been assimilated so-to-speak and everything wrong hangs over Freud's corpse like moss on a water's surface, yet his bones have sunken and now the cultures of the pond populate his bone structures without even knowing it.

Nice. Although I would say that Beyond the Pleasure Principle was also essential. But I'm biased.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CiG
I'm tired of being distracted by untermensch calling me ugly and whatnot at school. I need to pass, I can't deal with these asshole trying to talk to me in class. I wonder if I should talk to the office about this.