The ENSLAVED thread

[affinityband]

not as big a fruitcake as the one who walks into a perfectly decent conversation and tries to draw attention to himself by ridiculing one of the parties involved

@AC: Totally agreed!

who doesnt love attention

 

[Manbient]

When I like something, I don't think I'm right about it. When I believe something, I don't think I'm right about it.

I don't think you can actually argue with me, as what i'm saying it not up for debate, it's just a fact. Unless of course you can give me examples of things you know you're wrong about but continue to believe you're right about, in which case it's a completely contradictory statement.

examples:
"I know i like Burzum, but i am sure i don't like burzum"
"I believe i am hungry, but i don't believe i'm hungry"

I think it's just the language that's tripping you up, because it's somewhat circular. If they think they are wrong, then they no longer believe that thing. It is impossible to believe something you don't believe. Hence, everyone is always under the impression they are right. This is something ENTIRELY different from liking or believing in something, but being ok with other people not liking or believing in it also. The fundamental belief of "people should believe and like what i do" is NOT implied by simply liking or believing something. It exists seperate from that.

 

[Demilich]

^ what you've got here is a lot of unnecessarily dichotymous thinking leading you to believe that if I don't think I'm right I must think I'm wrong

You're going to have to see beyond that to take what I'm saying for what it is... right now you're essentially trying to stick a square peg into a round hole

 

[Manbient]

^ what you've got here is a lot of unnecessarily dichotymous thinking leading you to believe that if I don't think I'm right I must think I'm wrong

EDIT: let me make it clearer. bottom line: Believing you're right necessarily means you believe you're not wrong. There's no such thing as the belief that you are wrong.There's such a thing as believing a FORMER belief you had is wrong, but there IS no such state where a current belief you hold you know is false. that would mean you don't hold the belief in the first place.

 

[all_sins_undone]

bottom line: Believing you're right necessarily means you believe you're not wrong. There's no such thing as the belief that you are wrong.

correct

 

[Demilich]

EDIT: let me make it clearer. bottom line: Believing you're right necessarily means you believe you're not wrong. There's no such thing as the belief that you are wrong.There's such a thing as believing a FORMER belief you had is wrong, but there IS no such state where a current belief you hold you know is false. that would mean you don't hold the belief in the first place.

you just completely ignored what I said. drop me a PM when you wake up and realise how stupid this line of thinking is. of course I don't think I'm wrong.

 

[Manbient]

you just completely ignored what I said. drop me a PM when you wake up and realise how stupid this line of thinking is. of course I don't think I'm wrong.

I was never arguing the point you made. I DON'T think uncertainty in being right means you are necessarily wrong. That's something you made up that isn't part of what i'm getting at. It only works the way i stated it. Read the post you just quoted again, and try to find a flaw. One which doesn't involve going backwards and making a claim that isn't entailed by my argument.

Here's the problem:

When I believe something, I don't think I'm right about it.

This is an impossible scenario. The very nature of a "belief" is that you accept said belief as truth. That's the most basic definition of a belief.

B - Belief


Belief: What one thinks is true, what one holds is more probable than not. Fundamental propositional attitude.

In discussing human beings, one cannot do without a term like "belief", if only because one knows people have all manner of ideas that may or may not be true, and that other people may agree or disagree about these assessments. It should be noted that the inclusion of probability makes the analysis of beliefs both more subtle and realistic and more complex.

And apparently it takes considerable intellectual sophistication, especially in matters of ideology or religion, to know that what one believes, however fondly or passionately, is usually at best more probable than not, and not provably strictly or completely true.

The most interesting line of all is probably the last one there. Not because it proves what i'm trying to say, in face if anything it's evidence for the opposite, but i don't believe it's a readily obtainable state, and surely not the norm.

 

[Sadguru]

Armageddon's Child, what do you mean by intelligence?

 

[Manbient]

Armageddon's Child, what do you mean by intelligence?

i don't think it matters really. In this case i think the definition for intelligence comes ad hoc to the concept that intelligent people find the "right" path, ie the one which converges with his own. I do believe there are objective truths to music, but i think that the magnitude of enjoyment through music is dependant on far too many variables that limiting it to almost completely one variable (in this case "intelligence" which even then is only going to refer to a specific kind of intelligence) is rediculous. The simple fact that many many intelligent people like different kinds of music should be enough to show that it is much too simplified an explanation of what makes music "good".

 

[Sadguru]

i don't think it matters really. In this case i think the definition for intelligence comes ad hoc to the concept that intelligent people find the "right" path, ie the one which converges with his own. I do believe there are objective truths to music, but i think that the magnitude of enjoyment through music is dependant on far too many variables that limiting it to almost completely one variable (in this case "intelligence" which even then is only going to refer to a specific kind of intelligence) is rediculous. The simple fact that many many intelligent people like different kinds of music should be enough to show that it is much too simplified an explanation of what makes music "good".

Thanks for your answer.

On the other hand, I think it does matter, and moreover, I think that intelligence is a crucial issue when it comes to people's conceptions about music. People has built an imaginary hierarchy in which "intelligent" people are associated with "sophisticated" music. Until there's no consensus on the meaning of the word intelligence in that context, I'm afraid we won't be able to reach an acceptable conclusion.

In which objective truths in music do you believe?

 

[BloodSword]

The constant re-evaluation of that which you value is part of being a thoughtful human being. If you've reached a point of stasis, you might as well be six feet under, because the living stopped long ago.

That is more than likely,the single best post I've read on this forum. And of course, all "intelligient" people here, would surely realize and understand, that above-mentioned quote is applicable to much more than "good or bad" music.

 

[all_sins_undone]

lol @ sadguru somehow thinking that asking for the definition of a word makes him philosophical and deep

 

[Demilich]

to know that what one believes, however fondly or passionately, is usually at best more probable than not, and not provably strictly or completely true.

To me, this sounds like exactly what I was trying to say. And don't tell me that because the almighty philosophical dictionary tells you that this is a rare understanding to come to that it is not the one I hold myself. I have come to this conclusion through my observation of life and my own personal experience. I know that at best my beliefs are probably true, and that I should never assume my belief to negate the truth of anyone elses.

edit: lol, if there's really anything so esoteric about the knowledge contained above, then I guess you can just call me Mr. Intelligent and I'll call you Mr. Inadvertently-Proves-Me-Right

 

[Tubbs]

Wasn't this thread about Enslaved?

 

[Demilich]

That is more than likely,the single best post I've read on this forum. And of course, all "intelligient" people here, would surely realize and understand, that above-mentioned quote is applicable to much more than "good or bad" music.

Very well said! Constantly keeping the mind in a state of evaluation of its surroundings - coupled with keeping it open to new ideas - are cornerstones of cultivating one's own well-being in my books.

 

[i aint play this]

Enslaved is good

 

[Demilich]

I listened to a track from Ruun yesterday and it sounded dull

 

[Sadguru]

I listened to a track from Ruun yesterday and it sounded dull

Which track?

 

[Demilich]

Whichever one's on myspace!

 

[Sadguru]

Whichever one's on myspace!

Path to Vanir? It's one of the album's highlight IMO.