The great and all powerful religion thread!

[Thoth-Amon]

I am not in disbelief of a higher power because there's no natural evidence for his existence. I have this (logical) disbelief because there is no evidence at all, and there is no reason to have this belief whatsoever. I don't know how many times I have to emphasize that if God came down and gave me a megahighfive I would totally fucking believe in him, but I will continue to do so until you get it. But the fact of the matter is that, just like everything else in life, having no valid reason whatsoever for believing in it leads me to the conclusion that it doesn't exist until a valid reason is provided.

And believing in the supernatural with no evidence is definitely not as "sane or logical" than to not believe in its "unlikelyhood."

exactly.
i think this position is frustrating to theists because... well its obviously reasonable yet they can't actually meet the criteria we have listed to prove their case so when threats of eternal punishment fail they resort to word games and tortured rhetoric.

 

[Carcassian]

I don't know how many times I have to emphasize that if God came down and gave me a megahighfive I would totally fucking believe in him, but I will continue to do so until you get it.

I don't know; I just never really thought God would be a highfive kind of dude.

Dodens v God in a highfiving duel: (who can go "too low" first?) That shit would be fucking stylin' as all us young folks in the hood would have it.

 

[Dak]

There is also the point I made; that since the idea of god and spirituality is generally intensely personal, no god exists to me.

Spirit world? l-o-fucking-l. I'd like your hypothesis, experiment, data and conclusion on why that exists typed up and handed into me in a manila envelope by 3 PM est.

You are still ignoring that [athiests] are making an assumption of there being no supernatural based off of a lack of natural evidence. I consider this at least as equally absurd as athiests consider believing in a god is.

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Dude, it's the spirit world. Can't you just...CONJURE YOUR EVIDENCE?! *waves hands*

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Sure that's possible but where's the evidence? Since you can't procure any I don't see how people are supposed to be obligated to believe in it, especially on pain of eternal damnation.

I didn't ask anyone to believe in it, just to concede to those who do it's an equal possibility.

I don't see any reason to concede that. If someone believes in an invisible unicorn who eats lollypops, or a teacup orbiting around the sun, why should I take that seriously at all? Why should anyone?

People can believe whatever the fuck they want, but that doesn't make it rational or logical. If you claim the existence of something, you should have a good case. Otherwise, you're just a loony to me.

To the first paragraph, why would it even matter? Unless you had crowds of people antagonizing others and claiming they were going to a sugarless afterlife if they didn't believe? Then it would merely be annoying.

To the second: I have good personal reasons, but your lack of reasons doesn't make me looney, get it?

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I am not in disbelief of a higher power because there's no natural evidence for his existence. I have this (logical) disbelief because there is no evidence at all, and there is no reason to have this belief whatsoever. I don't know how many times I have to emphasize that if God came down and gave me a megahighfive I would totally fucking believe in him, but I will continue to do so until you get it. But the fact of the matter is that, just like everything else in life, having no valid reason whatsoever for believing in it leads me to the conclusion that it doesn't exist until a valid reason is provided.

And believing in the supernatural with no evidence is definitely not as "sane or logical" than to not believe in its "unlikelyhood."

-points to response to Uthark/Thoth-

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I don't know; I just never really thought God would be a highfive kind of dude.

Dodens v God in a highfiving duel: (who can go "too low" first?) That shit would be fucking stylin' as all us young folks in the hood would have it.

i think God would most likely give him a Megadropkick though... "Hey you atheist asshole! I saw all that nasty shit you said about me on UM! Taste the foot of Christ bitch!"

 

[Thoth-Amon]

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I didn't ask anyone to believe in it, just to concede to those who do it's an equal possibility.

but its not as equal of a possibility anymore than it is equally possible that the tooth fairy may or may not exist.

 

[Dak]

Exactly. Same with God.

Big difference between parents leaving money in exchange for children's teeth while they sleep and personal revelations from [a higher power] to an awake adult.

 

[Uthark]

I didn't ask anyone to believe in it, just to concede to those who do it's an equal possibility.

Another classic christian fallacy. Because there's no proof or disproof, you claim it's a 50/50 chance. That's not how it works.

To the first paragraph, why would it even matter? Unless you had crowds of people antagonizing others and claiming they were going to a sugarless afterlife if they didn't believe? Then it would merely be annoying.

It matters because you're trying to argue that you can't judge what someone else believes. It's all equally logical and valid! I don't believe you would apply that sentiment when you're faced with such ridiculous people as I mentioned.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Big difference between parents leaving money in exchange for children's teeth while they sleep and personal revelations from [a higher power] to an awake adult.

personal revelations are not evidence though. evidence needs to be confirmed by multiple persons. the personal revelations could be just as easily explained as self-delusion; hallucination; dreams; etc.
and besides one could always say "well yes we know that parents leave money under kids pillows and claim its the tooth fairy, but in fact of point the tooth fairy does exist it merely does not manifest itself in any detectable way... so you can't disprove it".

 

[Carcassian]

Big difference between parents leaving money in exchange for children's teeth while they sleep and personal revelations from [a higher power] to an awake adult.

This is an interesting point. Aside from the obvious (and potentially offensive) notion that people hearing voices in their head or similar are commonly thought to be suffering from mental health issues. My friend claims to have had similar - though in my 33 years, God hasn't deined to speak to me once.

Of course the argument cannot be resolved as the point of your faith is that it defies reason. However, as it defies reason, there can be no way for a non-believer to reason himself into believing, in which case, why don't God come and lay the faith magic on me ?

(notwithstanding it may be because I am an utter cunt).

 

[Dak]

Another classic christian fallacy. Because there's no proof or disproof, you claim it's a 50/50 chance. That's not how it works.

Why isn't it a 50/50 chance?

It matters because you're trying to argue that you can't judge what someone else believes. It's all equally logical and valid! I don't believe you would apply that sentiment when you're faced with such ridiculous people as I mentioned.

If they kept their belief to themselves unless asked for it I honestly wouldn't care to the extent that the resident "fundamental athiests" care about religious people. Especially considering the only members on here that really make any solid "resistance" to them are AcK and myself ( and tbf you would have to concede that neither one of us falls into the "blathering evangelical" box.)

 

[Dak]

personal revelations are not evidence though. evidence needs to be confirmed by multiple persons. the personal revelations could be just as easily explained as self-delusion; hallucination; dreams; etc.
and besides one could always say "well yes we know that parents leave money under kids pillows and claim its the tooth fairy, but in fact of point the tooth fairy does exist it merely does not manifest itself in any detectable way... so you can't disprove it".

So for one personal example, a friend had a [supernatural experience] seperate from mine but that confirmed mine even though they had been skeptical before.

This still would not count as "evidence" obviously, except to the two of us, because the evidence you want is natural, and this would still be supernatural.

The tooth fairy analogy is very very weak you have to admit.

there can be no way for a non-believer to reason himself into believing

I agree completely. As to why God doesn't "lay the faith magic" on you or whatever, I couldn't tell you.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

The tooth fairy analogy is very very weak you have to admit.

The LSD analogy is pretty accurate though.

 

[Dak]

Oh yeah, side note as far as logic goes, this is my [backup] logic for believing in the supernatural.

If I live my entire life believing in God, doing what I believe I am supposed to do etc etc, and then die and it turns out there is no God/afterlife etc, what did I lose? So I missed out on the things my beliefs forbid (extramarital sex,certain foods, etc) but how big of a loss is that? Not a really big one.

On the flip side if I die and my beliefs are right, "epic WIN".

Bottom line, if I hold the athiest belief and I am right, no difference than if I didn't hold that belief. But if it is wrong, epic FAIL.

That would be my logic, personal experiences aside.

 

[Dak]

The LSD analogy is pretty accurate though.

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life, and in general avoid legal ones to. That analogy doesn't work for my case.

 

[Carcassian]

So I missed out on the things my beliefs forbid (extramarital sex,certain foods, etc) but how big of a loss is that? Not a really big one.

I'm not sure this is the mindset that the big G has in mind! ...and mate, extramarital sex is awesome.

This might not be the greatest argument that you've put forward, but do you know what ? Kudos to you to sticking to your beliefs. At least you're not strapping dynamite to your chest and detonating yourself on board crowded busses.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Oh yeah, side note as far as logic goes, this is my [backup] logic for believing in the supernatural.

If I live my entire life believing in God, doing what I believe I am supposed to do etc etc, and then die andit turns out there is no God/afterlife etc, what did I lose? So I missed out on the things my beliefs forbid (extramarital sex,certain foods, etc) but how big of a loss is that? Not a really big one.

On the flip side if I die and my beliefs are right, "epic WIN.".

Bottom line, if I hold the athiest belief and I am right, no difference than if I didn't hold that belief. But if it is wrong, epic FAIL.

That would be my logic, personal experiences aside.

Well, the flipside of your first point is that if you're a Christian your entire life, and it turns out there's no Christian afterlife, then you've wasted the only life you'll ever have following meaningless rules and denying yourself things which you would otherwise have experienced.

As far as the possibility of Hell:

1) There are plenty of other religions out there with their own versions of hell, and since each of those religions is roughly as valid as Christianity, the benefit you gain from choosing one of them is pretty trivial.

2) How do you know there isn't a god who sends people to Hell for believing falsely in a different god, but spares those who reserve judgment? You might as well factor that in as well to this giant meaningless plasma of probabilities that you're subscribing to here.

3) When you get down to it, it really makes no sense whatsoever for a god who calls himself just and merciful to administer infinite punishments for finite transgressions. It's also unfair for a god to expect people to believe in him with absolutely no evidence, and only a very ambiguously-written holy scripture to go off of. If there really is a wise and merciful god out there, he would give me a way to believe in him that doesn't insult my intelligence.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life, and in general avoid legal ones to. That analogy doesn't work for my case.

...Okay, congratulations. That wasn't my point.

The point was that someone can claim to have experienced anything, and other people have no way of knowing if what they experienced was real or just a figment of their imagination. This is why anecdotal claims (i.e. yours) are not taken seriously in a serious debate.

 

[Dak]

...Okay, congratulations. That wasn't my point.

The point was that someone can claim to have experienced anything, and other people have no way of knowing if what they experienced was real or just a figment of their imagination. This is why anecdotal claims (i.e. yours) are not taken seriously in a serious debate.

I didn't expect my personal claims to be proof for you. They are proof for me .


As far as the other post, sure, picking which concept of the supernatural could be true is akin to a crapshoot. I am not suggesting you pick one.

Just concede that a general belief in the supernatural is not insane/idiotic.

and denying yourself things which you would otherwise have experienced

I really don't think I am missing out on anything amazing tbh.

 

[swizzlenuts]

It is insane/idiotic if you believe in the supernatural because of anecdotal evidence or a personal experience without any evidence to back it up, tbh.

 

[Zephyrus]

And even most "personal experiences" can now be explained as psychological phenomena, as if there's a God-shaped hole in most peoples' brains.