The great and all powerful religion thread!

[AchrisK]

The whole point of evaluating whether a claim is true is to be skeptical of it and the evidence presented in support. If we blindly accept something because we want the claim to be true, we are fooling ourselves.

As for your evidence, are you referring to your version of the Watchmaker argument? If so, that argument has been proven wrong.

Do you think I want it to be true to the extent that I would fool myself into believing it? Do you think I like the idea of Hell? Do you think I understand all about the whys of human suffering on earth? I would be much more "at home" with the belief that death is the end. You live and then you don't, and that's it.

I disagree that belief has to come from the skeptical, especially when dealing with spiritual matters. Nobody can prove God, so in your view nobody should believe, right? But taking the evidence and making a decision is not blindly accepting. Even more than before (thanks to you guys) I have been weighing the evidence and if anything I am more convinced. Yes, even when considering the evil in the world and hell. I am also more interested in more specifics about exactly what evolution is and what it claims and what evidence there is. Believe me, I hate it when people (Christians/non) just parrot what they have heard without looking into it themselves. I am sure we have all fallen into this, but I want to avoid it.

The watchmaker argument? Come on, give me a little more credit (not that I think it's entirely meritless).

 

[cookiecutter]

I don't think that God has to be proven true meaning 100% certainty, which is impossible. Nor can he be disproven 100% false either. However, based on current evidence, there is so small a chance that he exists that it is not rational to believe.

I think that all beliefs should pass skeptical muster, or else how can we learn if they are true or not? I care a great deal about whether what I believe is true. The best way to discover the truth of a believe is testing whether reality supports it.

Could you post a quick synposis of this evidence that has you convinced? This is a large thread and I don't want to search the entirety of it to find what you mean, and I would like to understand your thought process.

 

[AchrisK]

Originally Posted by AchrisK View Post
I don't want to write a book, and I am not that smart. But here are a few things.

Long story short my stepfather was a big partier. He smoked cigarrettes and drank a lot and did speed and stuff. My mom started taking us to church when I was probably about 5th grade. He would go to some Christian concerts and my mom's church softball games. He was usually drunk and sometimes embarrasing. Anyway one time he went to a concert drunk and speeding and ended up becoming a Christian. He stopped smoking and drinking and everything instantly. He did a huge 180 and is still going strong (I am 40).

When I was a pothead I tried to stop smoking weed, but never really could because I never REALLY wanted to. Through different circumstances I ended up going to church and ended up becoming a Christian (or, maybe going back to it). It was weird because I was somewhat resistant to making the decision. I didn't really want to change. Anyway, when I did make the decision, I no longer had the desire to smoke weed. It may sound like a small deal, but it was pretty impressive to me.

No, neither of these prove anything, but to me they are testimonies in the trial of Christianity.

Throughout history critics of the bible have cited many things that they say prove the bible to be inaccurate. But as time goes on, and more archeological discoveries are made, the bible proven to be accurate, and not the opposite.

The bible is not a Jewish nationalist book, and no human has anything to gain by writing it the way it is written.

Christianity is not like any other religion. It explains what the problem is and has its God offer the solution, and pay the price. It is not a system where you earn your salvation. It puts everyone on a equal starting point where nobody can claim to be superior.

The bible os full of ageless wisdom and insight into mankind. It is a reasonable explanation of the human condition. Man given true free will, and making a mess of it.

There is no denying that it is a quite natural for humans to believe in a "god". No other religion has a god who has made the claims that the god of the bible has made. And with prophecy and the historocity of the resurrection of Christ, it makes a convincing argument for itself.

It tells of the origin of life. Science has nothing on this matter.

The arguments against Christianity are weak.

Again, I understand that none of this is proof. But when dealing with the unprovable, one must take the evidence from all kinds of different sources and weigh it, and make a decision.

=====

Here it is. It was on page 3, and was a reply to your question (cookie).

That is a direct paste/copy. I have learned a few things since then.

 

[CAIRATH]

The only way you can claim there is evidence of a God (still leaving the problem of figuring out which, if any, of all the supposed Gods that mankind has known over the course of history that would be) is if you amend the definition of the word evidence somehow.

There currently really is no tangible evidence of any kind that suggests the presence of any kind of God above a more earthly and rational explanation. Following the principle of Occam's Razor it doesn't really make any sense to conjure up the divine or super natural to explain things when a more logical explanation that makes far less assumptions about the state of our reality already exists.

Let me ask you this, let's say hypothetically that you were to raise a child on this planet and were able to somehow keep them entirely oblivious to any of the current established religions until they are well into adulthood. He or she would have no preconceived notions of God or the various scriptures or anything like that. What tangible aspect of our reality would this person, with no notion of the concept of a God whatsoever, look to and conclude that the only (or most logical) explanation is that there must be some kind of higher power at work.

(without resorting to the argument from ignorance please)

 

[~Derek~]

I'm a litte surprised you said the arguments against Christianity are weak, maybe I'm being biased since I'm not a Christian, but the arguments I've read against Christianity seem a lot stronger than what Christians have said, basically just citing religion as the source of life, ciitng feelings in the chest and othe regions being proof of God "moving them", etc.., though your argument towards the end seems quite unique to an extent, mostly all I've heard most of my life when people argue Christinaity to me is feelings, strawman, etc.. And all religions tell of the origin of life, Christianity isnt unique for it. Bawically the arguments against Christianity make a lot more sense to me but I guess that's one of the reaosns at the end of the day I'm not a Christian.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I don't want to write a book, and I am not that smart. But here are a few things.

Long story short my stepfather was a big partier. He smoked cigarrettes and drank a lot and did speed and stuff. My mom started taking us to church when I was probably about 5th grade. He would go to some Christian concerts and my mom's church softball games. He was usually drunk and sometimes embarrasing. Anyway one time he went to a concert drunk and speeding and ended up becoming a Christian. He stopped smoking and drinking and everything instantly. He did a huge 180 and is still going strong (I am 40).

When I was a pothead I tried to stop smoking weed, but never really could because I never REALLY wanted to. Through different circumstances I ended up going to church and ended up becoming a Christian (or, maybe going back to it). It was weird because I was somewhat resistant to making the decision. I didn't really want to change. Anyway, when I did make the decision, I no longer had the desire to smoke weed. It may sound like a small deal, but it was pretty impressive to me.

No, neither of these prove anything, but to me they are testimonies in the trial of Christianity.

Okay. I'm not sure why you're quoting this as "evidence", but whatever.

Throughout history critics of the bible have cited many things that they say prove the bible to be inaccurate. But as time goes on, and more archeological discoveries are made, the bible proven to be accurate, and not the opposite.

That's a pretty wild, empty generalization to make without any references to cite. Here's mine: the Bible is full of contradictions, mainly arising from the uneducated time from which it originates, and from the long history of translations and "revisions" it has undergone in the past two millennia.

The bible is not a Jewish nationalist book, and no human has anything to gain by writing it the way it is written.

Of course they do. It's an instrument of power, and has been used as such for ages. Although its influence has diminished in recent years, it has served as the 'legal system' for plenty of monarchs and despots in the past.

Christianity is not like any other religion. It explains what the problem is and has its God offer the solution, and pay the price. It is not a system where you earn your salvation. It puts everyone on a equal starting point where nobody can claim to be superior.

The bible os full of ageless wisdom and insight into mankind. It is a reasonable explanation of the human condition. Man given true free will, and making a mess of it.

No point in responding to this, since this is 100% biased, unquestioning praise of the book. I thought you said you were actually weighing evidence and examining your beliefs more carefully these days...

There is no denying that it is a quite natural for humans to believe in a "god". No other religion has a god who has made the claims that the god of the bible has made. And with prophecy and the historocity of the resurrection of Christ, it makes a convincing argument for itself.

So now you want us to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Sweet. I'm sure you looked up plenty of external sources to corroborate this 'evidence' from the Bible.

It tells of the origin of life. Science has nothing on this matter.

That's because scientists don't make up fairy tales to explain the origin of life. Why are you expecting science to come up with an answer for a question we have no information/observations for? Probably because you want an answer more badly than you want the actual truth.

The arguments against Christianity are weak.

Yeah, I can tell you're really weighing the evidence from both sides... More like completely ignoring the evidence against your side, and taking your biased pro-Christian opinions as fact.

 

[AchrisK]

Let me ask you this, let's say hypothetically that you were to raise a child on this planet and were able to somehow keep them entirely oblivious to any of the current established religions until they are well into adulthood. He or she would have no preconceived notions of God or the various scriptures or anything like that. What tangible aspect of our reality would this person, with no notion of the concept of a God whatsoever, look to and conclude that the only (or most logical) explanation is that there must be some kind of higher power at work.

Is that child raised in a sex obsessed, materialistic society?

I think in this case the thing that would be the most convincing pieces of evidence (as it is for many people anyway) is an inborn idea that there is a higher power. The Bible says God it put there.

People throughout history have always ALWAYS has this sense, and have searched for ways to express it. There is no denying that. Look at remote tribes. They almost always have ideas about a God and creator. I think the only time people begin questioning this is in more modern and philosophical and educated societies. I also think it is no coincidence that these societies also tend towards immorality. Are there any societies that got more modern and more moral? Now immorality is a good reason to question the existence of God. "Why should anyone tell me what to do? I want to do what I want."

So then if the person has an inborn idea of a God, then he can look all around and see evidence in creation. Forgive me the term "creation", but I am a Christian. When most people see beautiful and majestic nature a feeling wells up inside of them. If you believe in a God and creator, this leads to an appreciation of what you assume is his handiwork.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

That is a direct paste/copy. I have learned a few things since then.

I didn't see this line when I was first responding. You should probably explain which of those claims you still believe.

 

[cookiecutter]

Long story short my stepfather was a big partier. He smoked cigarrettes and drank a lot and did speed and stuff. My mom started taking us to church when I was probably about 5th grade. He would go to some Christian concerts and my mom's church softball games. He was usually drunk and sometimes embarrasing. Anyway one time he went to a concert drunk and speeding and ended up becoming a Christian. He stopped smoking and drinking and everything instantly. He did a huge 180 and is still going strong (I am 40).

This is not evidence. This shows that your father stopped drinking/taking drugs and became a Christian. I am sure being in a supportive group was helpful, but it does not show any evidence of divine intervention. What if an atheist stopped taking drugs, or a muslim? Does that make them right?

When I was a pothead I tried to stop smoking weed, but never really could because I never REALLY wanted to. Through different circumstances I ended up going to church and ended up becoming a Christian (or, maybe going back to it). It was weird because I was somewhat resistant to making the decision. I didn't really want to change. Anyway, when I did make the decision, I no longer had the desire to smoke weed. It may sound like a small deal, but it was pretty impressive to me.

I never have smoked weed nor do I desire to. Atheism must be right!

No, neither of these prove anything, but to me they are testimonies in the trial of Christianity.

Then what relevance do they have to the discussion?

Throughout history critics of the bible have cited many things that they say prove the bible to be inaccurate. But as time goes on, and more archeological discoveries are made, the bible proven to be accurate, and not the opposite.

Even if the archaeological evidence was perfect (it isn't), it suggests nothing about the divine. If a book of Roman religion mentions that there was a temple of Iupiter Optimus Maximus in Rome and there is a temple of Iupiter Optimus Maximus in Rome, does that make you believe in Jupiter?

The bible is not a Jewish nationalist book, and no human has anything to gain by writing it the way it is written.

Nothing to gain? Not Power over their followers? Money from the faithful? Or perhaps they were just superstitious primitive men trying to make sense out of the world without the help of modern science.

Christianity is not like any other religion. It explains what the problem is and has its God offer the solution, and pay the price. It is not a system where you earn your salvation. It puts everyone on a equal starting point where nobody can claim to be superior.

It gives answers but not justifications for why those answers are correct. Islam also gives answers and a path to salvation. You don't think they're correct.

The bible os full of ageless wisdom and insight into mankind. It is a reasonable explanation of the human condition. Man given true free will, and making a mess of it.

It is not reasonable and contains plenty if non ageless wisdom. For example slavery, rape, incest, murder, genocide, child abuse and on and on.

There is no denying that it is a quite natural for humans to believe in a "god". No other religion has a god who has made the claims that the god of the bible has made. And with prophecy and the historocity of the resurrection of Christ, it makes a convincing argument for itself.

This is just wrong. Historocity if the resurrection? Are you serious? There is no evidence for the resurrection in valid sources of history (hint: Not the Bible).

It tells of the origin of life. Science has nothing on this matter.

This is just wrong. We've discussed this. Also, even if science had no clue, you still need to show that yours is correct, not make something up and say it's true because we have no other answer.

The arguments against Christianity are weak.

No need to refute them when you can just say they're weak!

Again, I understand that none of this is proof. But when dealing with the unprovable, one must take the evidence from all kinds of different sources and weigh it, and make a decision.

I agree 100%. You however are weighing flawed "evidence".

Here it is. It was on page 3, and was a reply to your question (cookie).

That is a direct paste/copy. I have learned a few things since then.

Thank you for digging this up. I tried not to be too mean, but these arguments are incredibly flawed, and I tried to show why.

 

[cookiecutter]

Athiest, there is a thousand different books that disprove Jesus' existence and you only have to read one if you're a believer to realise that its logical and truthful he never existed. Also there is no person who is credible for bringing the idea of God to Earth which basically means that there is no God and it was made up by someone. Religion pisses me right off, especially Islam and Christianity. Anyone read the words of Charles Dawkins? He's a genius, youtube him theres some footage of him reading sections of his book " The God Delusion ". I really need to write down what I've come up with on disproving religion except I'm not that good with clever writing...

Correction: It is Richard Dawkins not Charles Dawkins.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

When most people see beautiful and majestic nature a feeling wells up inside of them. If you believe in a God and creator, this leads to an appreciation of what you assume is his handiwork.

I get what you are saying here dude... honestly. However should we also include HIV and Malaria as part of God's beautiful creation also?

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Are there any societies that got more modern and more moral?

Not that I'm one for absolute morality, but wouldn't you think getting rid of things like slavery and pederasty outweigh sexual promiscuity and what have you?

 

[Bryn]

Correction: It is Richard Dawkins not Charles Dawkins.

oops, was going to write something about charles darwin then got muddled up :zombie:

 

[zabu of nΩd]

@ cookiecutter

Beat you to the rebuttal.

 

[cookiecutter]

I think in this case the thing that would be the most convincing pieces of evidence (as it is for many people anyway) is an inborn idea that there is a higher power. The Bible says God it put there.

People throughout history have always ALWAYS has this sense, and have searched for ways to express it. There is no denying that. Look at remote tribes. They almost always have ideas about a God and creator. I think the only time people begin questioning this is in more modern and philosophical and educated societies.

It has been suggested that the ease and frequency in which humans display belief in god(s) is because of an evolutionary adaptation or byproduct that allowed our primitive ancestors to cope with a world of mysteries. Now that science can solve those mysteries, we can shed the false beliefs.

I also think it is no coincidence that these societies also tend towards immorality. Are there any societies that got more modern and more moral? Now immorality is a good reason to question the existence of God. "Why should anyone tell me what to do? I want to do what I want."

I think the world is a more moral place today. Slavery is all but abolished, freedom is incredibly high. Bigotry is frowned on more than ever. This is especially apparent in secular Europe. In fact the immoral societies tend to be the religious ones, like in the middle east.

So then if the person has an inborn idea of a God, then he can look all around and see evidence in creation. Forgive me the term "creation", but I am a Christian. When most people see beautiful and majestic nature a feeling wells up inside of them. If you believe in a God and creator, this leads to an appreciation of what you assume is his handiwork.

I think you are taking you assumption that god created the world, feeling awe at the beauty of nature, as we all do, and then chalking that feeling up as divine when it is in fact natural.

@ cookiecutter

Beat you to the rebuttal.

God was on your side.

 

[AchrisK]

Okay. I'm not sure why you're quoting this as "evidence", but whatever.

Changed lives are evidence. Not proof, but evidence to be evaluated. There are tons of examples of people's lives changing radically, and for the better, after becoming a Christian. Some in my own life. Yeah, I know there are tons of other people who also make changes by will power and through other religions. But I have heard of more and more profound changes coming as a result of Christianity.

That's a pretty wild, empty generalization to make without any references to cite. Here's mine: the Bible is full of contradictions, mainly arising from the uneducated time from which it originates, and from the long history of translations and "revisions" it has undergone in the past two centuries.

Thanks for all the specific references to contradictions.

Whatever you think of what the Bible says, it does not have a long history of translations and revisions. The "modern" Bible is translated from texts with respectable dates in relation to the event which they cover. What "revisions" do you speak of?

Of course they do. It's an instrument of power, and has been used as such for ages. Although its influence has diminished in recent years, it has served as the 'legal system' for plenty of monarchs and despots in the past.

No. Nobody has anything to gain except individuals. The Jewish history is full of embarassing failures of the Jewish people. The New Testament does not give much power at all to organized religion. Popes and priests are made up by the Catholic religion. The bible says to separate yourselves from people who try to use the gospel as a means of gain. If you knew what it actually said, you would know that there is no one group, especially an organized religion, that has anything to gain (i.e. power, money and things like that) from the bible as it is written.

No point in responding to this, since this is 100% biased, unquestioning praise of the book. I thought you said you were actually weighing evidence and examining your beliefs more carefully these days...

No it isn't. Read it. It just summarizes some of what the Bible says. The fact that Christianity has explanations for many of life's questions lends some credibility. Especially when compared to other religions which don't.

So now you want us to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Sweet. I'm sure you looked up plenty of external sources to corroborate this 'evidence' from the Bible.

Yes...at least I am saying that I do. There are books where evidence is given, and some external texts are cited. Again since we can't be there, and it goes against nature (read miracle) you have to go with what you have. The "evidence" is compelling. If you really want to look into it, I may be able to recommend a book.

That's because scientists don't make up fairy tales to explain the origin of life. Why are you expecting science to come up with an answer for a question we have no information/observations for? Probably because you want an answer more badly than you want the actual truth.

Well, I posted this then, but probably would not have if I were writing that now. I understand that "if not A then B" holds no weight. But the truth is that the origin of life, and possibly moreso of matter is so mind boggling that any explanation seems impossible. This makes the existence of God more plausable. Another small piece of potential evidence.

Yeah, I can tell you're really weighing the evidence from both sides... More like completely ignoring the evidence against your side, and taking your biased pro-Christian opinions as fact.

So, what is the evidence against?

 

[CAIRATH]

Long story short my stepfather was a big partier. He smoked cigarrettes and drank a lot and did speed and stuff. My mom started taking us to church when I was probably about 5th grade. He would go to some Christian concerts and my mom's church softball games. He was usually drunk and sometimes embarrasing. Anyway one time he went to a concert drunk and speeding and ended up becoming a Christian. He stopped smoking and drinking and everything instantly. He did a huge 180 and is still going strong (I am 40).

When I was a pothead I tried to stop smoking weed, but never really could because I never REALLY wanted to. Through different circumstances I ended up going to church and ended up becoming a Christian (or, maybe going back to it). It was weird because I was somewhat resistant to making the decision. I didn't really want to change. Anyway, when I did make the decision, I no longer had the desire to smoke weed. It may sound like a small deal, but it was pretty impressive to me.

No, neither of these prove anything, but to me they are testimonies in the trial of Christianity.

I am glad that your stepfather and you were able to turn your potentially self destructive lives around, but as you already concluded at the end of that story this doesn't exactly count as "evidence".

Throughout history critics of the bible have cited many things that they say prove the bible to be inaccurate. But as time goes on, and more archeological discoveries are made, the bible proven to be accurate, and not the opposite.

Can you give some examples of what archeological discoveries have been made that prove the bible to be accurate?

If you are referring to things like the fact that there is evidence that the various great deluge myths are based on actual floods, that is hardly surprising and does not in any way support all of the mythical accounts that were made up around those floods. The tsunami in Asia a few years ago would undoubtedly have been interpreted as a sign of God in earlier times (and has even now by plenty of the indigenous population there as well as Islamic extremists who claim it was God punishing the locals for allowing sinful behaviour of western tourists among other things). Yet most people nowadays would agree that there is a far more reasonable explanation for that event.

It [the Bible] puts everyone on a equal starting point where nobody can claim to be superior.

Unless you're a gay or a woman.

The bible os full of ageless wisdom and insight into mankind.

For every passage in the bible that could pass for ageless wisdom there is one to be found which propagates hatred, intolerance, ignorance and violence. It all depends on which parts of the bible you choose to ignore.

It tells of the origin of life. Science has nothing on this matter.

The arguments against Christianity are weak.

I understand you wrote this at the start of this thread so I'm not sure your views on that have changed but, well... I guess I've already said how I feel about that in my many posts in this thread already and I guess there is little point in repeating myself. It sure is a bold claim you make there.

Again, I understand that none of this is proof. But when dealing with the unprovable, one must take the evidence from all kinds of different sources and weigh it, and make a decision.

You keep mentioning evidence but so far you have still not presented your evidence. I thought this post was going to be the evidence yet you yourself point out repeatedly that it isn't. What evidence, and what source is it that you are taking it from.

Is that child raised in a sex obsessed, materialistic society?

I think in this case the thing that would be the most convincing pieces of evidence (as it is for many people anyway) is an inborn idea that there is a higher power. The Bible says God it put there.

People throughout history have always ALWAYS has this sense, and have searched for ways to express it. There is no denying that. Look at remote tribes. They almost always have ideas about a God and creator. I think the only time people begin questioning this is in more modern and philosophical and educated societies. I also think it is no coincidence that these societies also tend towards immorality. Are there any societies that got more modern and more moral? Now immorality is a good reason to question the existence of God. "Why should anyone tell me what to do? I want to do what I want."

This is assuming the child grows up entirely uneducated. The reason why history has seen thousands of different gods is because they were necessary to explain the gaps in the limited human understanding of reality. We no longer have need for a Sun God or God of the Crops because we now know what the sun is and why it rises everyday and how plant life and agriculture/biology works. That is what I meant when I asked not to approach it from the direction of ignorance because in the society we live in today there is no need (or should I say no excuse) to be that ignorant of things around us.

The morality/inborn god thing is something I will get into tomorrow because it is really late right now and I have lots to say about that.

 

[AchrisK]

I get what you are saying here dude... honestly. However should we also include HIV and Malaria as part of God's beautiful creation also?

I was simply replying to a scenario. In this scenario the person wasn't dealing with those issues. But amazingly, suffering has never been much of a catalyst for atheism. Quite the opposite, actually.

Weird, eh?

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Changed lives are evidence. Not proof, but evidence to be evaluated. There are tons of examples of people's lives changing radically, and for the better, after becoming a Christian. Some in my own life. Yeah, I know there are tons of other people who also make changes by will power and through other religions. But I have heard of more and more profound changes coming as a result of Christianity.

Perhaps you know of more profound changes "due" to Christianity because you have more exposure to Christianity. In any case by admitting that these things can take place without religion or because of other religions your "evidence" is invalidated.

Popes and priests are made up by the Catholic religion.

Actually no. This is a misconception that most protestants have because they interpret the bible in a historical vacuum. Priests are merely Presbyters (which the bible mentions 1 Tim. 4:14) and the Pope is merely the Bishop of Rome (an office also found in the Bible 1 Tim. 3:1). A bishop is of course a head or chief presbyter. So even though the power and roles of these offices have expanded greatly from their early Christian beginnings they do in fact have a basis in the bible and hence are not "inventions" of some later Catholic institution.

No it isn't. Read it. It just summarizes some of what the Bible says. The fact that Christianity has explanations for many of life's questions lends some credibility. Especially when compared to other religions which don't.

All religions attempt to address life's questions. Just because you find the explanations for one convincing does not make it true.

Yes...at least I am saying that I do. There are books where evidence is given, and some external texts are cited. Again since we can't be there, and it goes against nature (read miracle) you have to go with what you have. The "evidence" is compelling. If you really want to look into it, I may be able to recommend a book.

False. The external "evidence" you speak of is found in books written decades after Jesus' life and death and is not from first hand witnesses. This hardly constitutes evidence.

Well, I posted this then, but probably would not have if I were writing that now. I understand that "if not A then B" holds no weight. But the truth is that the origin of life, and possibly moreso of matter is so mind boggling that any explanation seems impossible. This makes the existence of God more plausable. Another small piece of potential evidence.

I actually agree with this... BUT I would urge us to explore other possibilities as well instead of just saying "Well I can't figure it out... YHWH must have done it!"

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I was simply replying to a scenario. In this scenario the person wasn't dealing with those issues. But amazingly, suffering has never been much of a catalyst for atheism. Quite the opposite, actually.

Weird, eh?

Not really. People who are undergoing intense suffering WANT to feel that there is some kind of meaning or purpose behind all of their suffering. It is unbearable to think that all of their suffering is to no point or purpose. Hence it makes complete sense why people are suffering turn to God.
However my point stands... why would a wise and loving God purposefully create monstrosities like HIV and Malaria?