The great and all powerful religion thread!

[skeptik]

AchrisK, honestly, you're embarrassing yourself, and you don't seem to understand what exactly evidence is. The least you can do is come up with 'evidence' from which there could only be one explanation. For example, the case of your stepfather. To say that his converting to Christianity caused him to change his life around is one thing, and may in fact be true, but to say that this is 'evidence' that God exists is just absurd. Many people turn to Christianity when they are in troubled times and need a turnaround in their lives. Christianity is a crutch that many people lean on to help them turn themselves around because it gives them a sense of comfort that they did not feel before. This is no way is 'evidence' that there is a higher power, merely that the belief in a higher power, or more specifically the Christian God, is a comforting and motivating force, which is a well documented fact. That in no way validates your claim of a higher power.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

AchrisK, honestly, you're embarrassing yourself, and you don't seem to understand what exactly evidence is. The least you can do is come up with 'evidence' from which there could only be one explanation. For example, the case of your stepfather. To say that his converting to Christianity caused him to change his life around is one thing, and may in fact be true, but to say that this is 'evidence' that God exists is just absurd. Many people turn to Christianity when they are in troubled times and need a turnaround in their lives. Christianity is a crutch that many people lean on to help them turn themselves around because it gives them a sense of comfort that they did not feel before. This is no way is 'evidence' that there is a higher power, merely that the belief in a higher power, or more specifically the Christian God, is a comforting and motivating force, which is a well documented fact. That in no way validates your claim of a higher power.

Precisely.

 

[AchrisK]

This is not evidence. This shows that your father stopped drinking/taking drugs and became a Christian. I am sure being in a supportive group was helpful, but it does not show any evidence of divine intervention. What if an atheist stopped taking drugs, or a muslim? Does that make them right?

No, the order of what happened with him was a bit more extraordinary. He became a Christian and immedeately stopped everything, including smoking cigarettes. Supportive group? Well, that's always helpful, but he stopped immedeately. He was drunk and on speed that night.

As I said, and keep saying, this is one piece of evidence. My decision is not based on this event alone (or at all, necessarily).

Even if the archaeological evidence was perfect (it isn't), it suggests nothing about the divine. If a book of Roman religion mentions that there was a temple of Iupiter Optimus Maximus in Rome and there is a temple of Iupiter Optimus Maximus in Rome, does that make you believe in Jupiter?

No, but if the Bible is found to be full of erroneous facts about history and geography, etc, then it's validity on spiritual matters also comes into question. It being valid in many provable ways just adds to the level of confidence one can have in it for unprovable things.

Nothing to gain? Not Power over their followers? Money from the faithful? Or perhaps they were just superstitious primitive men trying to make sense out of the world without the help of modern science.

Read my response to vihris-gari, As it is written, it only seems to me to benefit individuals. Also, it is not afraid to present things that are very difficult to understand and reconcile. I think if a man made up a religion, he would leave some of that out.

It gives answers but not justifications for why those answers are correct. Islam also gives answers and a path to salvation. You don't think they're correct.

Read response to vihris-gari.

It is not reasonable and contains plenty if non ageless wisdom. For example slavery, rape, incest, murder, genocide, child abuse and on and on.

I am not talking about what it talks about. I am just talking about insight into human nature and stuff.

This is just wrong. Historocity if the resurrection? Are you serious? There is no evidence for the resurrection in valid sources of history (hint: Not the Bible).

This is just wrong. We've discussed this. Also, even if science had no clue, you still need to show that yours is correct, not make something up and say it's true because we have no other answer.

See other response.

I agree 100%. You however are weighing flawed "evidence".

No I am not. I may be making a flawed decision, but the evidence is what it is.

Thank you for digging this up. I tried not to be too mean, but these arguments are incredibly flawed, and I tried to show why.

This is just geeting ridiculous, though. All these shotgun blasts at little old me. I got no allies.

Seriously though, I know that I will never convince anyone of anything, just as you're not likely to convince me that this evidence is invalid. I believe strongly what I keep saying, that there is evidence enough for belief, and sufficient lack of evidence for disbelief. It's almost like we have a choice to make.

 

[AchrisK]

I have to go to bed

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Changed lives are evidence. Not proof, but evidence to be evaluated. There are tons of examples of people's lives changing radically, and for the better, after becoming a Christian. Some in my own life. Yeah, I know there are tons of other people who also make changes by will power and through other religions. But I have heard of more and more profound changes coming as a result of Christianity.

This argument is pretty useless unless you've got some kind of statistics on "changed lives due to Christianity vs. other belief systems". Obviously you're more interested in the positive changes that result from Christianity, since you seem to think there are 'more and more' of them without knowing any actual numbers.

Thanks for all the specific references to contradictions.

As you may have (not) noticed, I was poking fun at you for your own lack of evidence for your claim that the Bible has been proven to be accurate. This kind of debate tends to take fucking forever, so I'm not particularly interested in it. If you need a list of Biblical contradictions, though, here you go. Feel free to find me a similar list of 'Biblical accuracies', if you can.

No. Nobody has anything to gain except individuals. The Jewish history is full of embarassing failures of the Jewish people. The New Testament does not give much power at all to organized religion. Popes and priests are made up by the Catholic religion. The bible says to separate yourselves from people who try to use the gospel as a means of gain. If you knew what it actually said, you would know that there is no one group, especially an organized religion, that has anything to gain (i.e. power, money and things like that) from the bible as it is written.

Just because the Bible says not to use it as a means of gain doesn't mean that it isn't used that way. Christianity has been used to justify a wide variety of injustices over the years, including crusades, inquisitions, theocracies, witch-hunts, homophobia and racism. That's what happens when a movement is started that pronounces all of its claims absolute truth, and those who disagree with it evil sinners. If you think it's not used as an instrument of power, then you don't know your history very well.

No it isn't. Read it. It just summarizes some of what the Bible says. The fact that Christianity has explanations for many of life's questions lends some credibility. Especially when compared to other religions which don't.

My life is not full of problems as a result of not being Christian. You assume that Christianity can solve everyone's problems . Try addressing all of the problems it causes, which I cited above, before telling me that Christianity is 'working wonders' in the lives of everyone it touches. And the Bible does not have a monopoly on 'ageless wisdom'. Anyone with a sufficient amount of common sense can live a perfectly respectable, moral, and safe life without reading the Bible.

Also, you keep assuming that Christianity is superior to other religions without giving any specifics. How much do you actually know about other religions?

Yes...at least I am saying that I do. There are books where evidence is given, and some external texts are cited. Again since we can't be there, and it goes against nature (read miracle) you have to go with what you have. The "evidence" is compelling. If you really want to look into it, I may be able to recommend a book.

I'd rather you find a webpage that explains it. I imagine that whatever you're trying to argue is explained in a concise form on the Internet. At present, however, you are making a wild, unscientific claim with no evidence, so I have no interest in this right now.

Well, I posted this then, but probably would not have if I were writing that now. I understand that "if not A then B" holds no weight. But the truth is that the origin of life, and possibly moreso of matter is so mind boggling that any explanation seems impossible. This makes the existence of God more plausable. Another small piece of potential evidence.

No. That is known as the argument from ignorance. This is the same argument used by the major proponents of intelligent design, by the way, in case you're interested.

So, what is the evidence against?

I have a feeling that Cookiecutter and Cairath already have this covered (along with everything else I've just typed in this post, probably), so here are a few links to start you off if you're really interested in some anti-Christiany evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_christianity
http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/ChristianityIndex.html

I suggest you worry about actually defending the claims you've already made first, as you've been doing a pretty bad job of that so far.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

No, the order of what happened with him was a bit more extraordinary. He became a Christian and immedeately stopped everything, including smoking cigarettes. Supportive group? Well, that's always helpful, but he stopped immedeately. He was drunk and on speed that night.
As I said, and keep saying, this is one piece of evidence. My decision is not based on this event alone (or at all, necessarily).
No, but if the Bible is found to be full of erroneous facts about history and geography, etc, then it's validity on spiritual matters also comes into question. It being valid in many provable ways just adds to the level of confidence one can have in it for unprovable things.

1. And yet there are plenty of Christians who still struggle with drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. Is God playing favorites?
2. Correct... if the bible is proven wrong in areas that can be tested (which it has) then it can hardly be trusted in areas which it cannot.

 

[AchrisK]

Actually, I will add that evidence doesn't equal proof. Though the word proof is used in some definitions, it is not fully equivalent. When I say evidence I mean:

The American Heritage® Dictionary

ev·i·dence (ěv'ĭ-dəns) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
3. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

-

WordNet®
noun
1. your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to base belief; "the evidence that smoking causes lung cancer is very compelling"
2. an indication that makes something evident; "his trembling was evidence of his fear"
3. (law) all the means by which any alleged matter of fact whose truth is investigated at judicial trial is established or disproved

If you have a word that more accurately describes what I am intending, then by all means suggest it. But don't pick at a word, especially when you are smart enough to know what I mean, and say I am embarassing myself. That's just cheap.

 

[Hatebreeder]

The Bible is a masterpiece of literature and should not be overlooked for this sole fact. Whether it's a complete view of God and the mysteries of life is debatable, but one should not ignore its utter variety of topics just because people have used it as a weapon of malice against "heathen" peoples.

 

[skeptik]

a word that more accurately describes what I am intending

anecdote

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

The Bible is a masterpiece of literature and should not be overlooked for this sole fact. Whether it's a complete view of God and the mysteries of life is debatable, but one should not ignore its utter variety of topics just because people have used it as a weapon of malice against "heathen" peoples.

It's a human written document used to promote government control.

 

[AchrisK]

anecdote

funny

 

[zabu of nΩd]

This is just geeting ridiculous, though. All these shotgun blasts at little old me. I got no allies.

Seriously though, I know that I will never convince anyone of anything, just as you're not likely to convince me that this evidence is invalid. I believe strongly what I keep saying, that there is evidence enough for belief, and sufficient lack of evidence for disbelief. It's almost like we have a choice to make.

Any Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu would tell you that there's sufficient evidence in support of their faiths as well; and, by your standards of 'evidence', they would be right. By your logic, if I read a story about unicorns or trolls, I could claim that they exist because there's no evidence to show that they don't. This is not how rational people make arguments to support their claims.

This whole debate very clearly shows that you believe in Christianity because you want to, and not because you've actually thought carefully about whether your beliefs are true or not.

 

[Hatebreeder]

It's a human written document used to promote government control.

Actually, I believe it is a history of the Jewish people, including coverage of all their political and religious dealings through their unique monotheistic interpretation. Though the non-Torah books were added by the Christians, they are still relevant to understanding Jewish history and thought.

Of all the monotheistic religions, I like Judaism the most because it is primarily non-evangelical and dedicated to the preservation of the old ways. I won't get into the moral implications, though.

 

[skeptik]

No, I was actually serious. Also, it IS important to note the discrepancy between "evidence" and the arguments that you use as "evidence" because the word itself has very strong connotations, and when you say that you have evidence for something, it implies that there are examples and demonstrations of things that point toward a greater proof in some significant way, and what you have been saying simply is not that. Your "evidence" really is a series of anecdotes and blatant absurdities. My intention is not to be rude or offensive, but what you're saying comes off as so ludicrous that I don't know how else to approach your arguments.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

funny

Thought you had to go to bed dude?!

 

[zabu of nΩd]

The Bible is a masterpiece of literature and should not be overlooked for this sole fact. Whether it's a complete view of God and the mysteries of life is debatable, but one should not ignore its utter variety of topics just because people have used it as a weapon of malice against "heathen" peoples.

Well, I can still ignore it because I have no need to follow a manual for common sense and morality -- and because I've already read or otherwise heard most of the stories in it, due to it being one of the most widely known books in human history.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Thought you had to go to bed dude?!

What a liar. *cough* hypocrite *cough*

 

[Hatebreeder]

Well, I can still ignore it because I have no need to follow a manual for common sense and morality -- and because I've already read or otherwise heard most of the stories in it, due to it being one of the most widely known books in human history.

When viewed through a classic Jewish perspective, though, it explains a lot more than any Christian interpretation. After all, they did FUCKING WRITE IT. The Talmud also helps.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Mmkay, I'll take your word for it.

 

[Hatebreeder]

Jews seem to be content, too. They are in touch with themselves as human beings and are very agreeable people (other than the stereotype about old, complaining Jewish men). They are also surprisingly liberal, but do not get themselves caught up in politics.

I am referring, of course, to the orthodox Jewish crowd, not the half-Jewish assholes who run Hollywood.