the most profound expressions of antichristianity in metal

[einride]

As for the original question... I'll side with Divine Victim on this one. To look for profound religious criticism within the confining structure of a single song, seems fruitless.

if this was true (expanding the argument to include not only "religious criticism") i would probably not listen to music

 

[einride]

and although i love discussing religion, i thought i'd contribute to the actual thread and say that bathory is extremely poignant sometimes, disregarding the occasionally faltering language. see: "one rode to asa bay", "crosstitution" and "twilight of the gods" -- they might not be great eloquent works of metaphysical criticism, but they are very well-aimed fists in the face of god and that is what matters. i tend to think that giving enough credit to christianity to start discussing its metaphysics within its own framework is a little bit too much to grant casually to something so fundamentally silly. honestly!

The crucifix in flames
The house of God burned down to the ground
A symbolic action of defiance
Brought palace of lies down

Refusal to acknowledge the authority
Of faith of liars
Has cleansed this world somewhat
By purifying lovely fire

Crosstitution
Crosstitution
Crosstitution

Holy writings, hokus pokus
Magic incense, blood and tears
Impeccable the ways of Heaven
To inflict terror and fear

All are born of woman
And the female is of sin
So we are all drenched soaky wet in sin
When our life begins

And for the rest of our days
To reach his kingdom full of bliss
We seek forgiveness
For something we didn't do
To someone who does not and never has
And never will exist

Crosstitution
Crosstitution
Crosstitution

Cross of lies, no one up high
Gayhood of priests and spartan feasts
Pathetic faith, your wine and bread
All will be well once we're all dead

He might have died for
Somebody's sins but sure not mine
If all you want is to him follow
And die too then I say fine

But don't you baptise one more
Generation in some fuckin' shame
Supported by that damned religion
Of yours I now watch in flames

Crosstitution
Crosstitution
Crosstitution

I will always defy your damn faith
As I've lived I'll die free
You'll never have me crosstitute myself
Or on my fuckin' knees

hail the hordes

 

[einride]

quorthon if you can hear me from your eternal damnation, i love you man, like honestly i really do love you in the most gay way possible

Holy Jesus, fuckin' Christ
Forgive my fuckin' head
It's full of doubts and questions
Did you really raise the dead?

Are you really so pathetic
That you can't be critisised?
Is it so hard to accept
That I may wonder why?

Out of nothing, born by no one
Wonders you create
Almighty fuckin' God
You super bluff, you mega-fake

They say you've said for you only
We all shall live and die
Tell me who needs Stalin
With a fascist in the sky?

Conquering the western hemisphere
With threats and lies
Spreading its holy terror
As another culture dies

It baptised and it burned and tortured
Its way through my land
And wielded above all
The crucifix by God's command

Pax Vobiscum
Pax Vobiscum
Pax Vobiscum
Pax Vobiscum

Imposing on the tribes of Europe
One faith built on lies and dreams
One religion so false
Always loose at every seam

Through wars and emigration
Soon a world faith took its form
As world saviour and almighty
The cross all world adorned

Computerised confessions
TV-preachers and very soon
The Christian man stood firm
And in '69 prayed on the moon

 

[skeptik]

many of the bands with lyrics like that actually claim to be adherents to a christian morality more or less completely reversed, which is something that i have never been able to understand. it's hardly practical on any level, and since i to some extent believe in natural morality (i.e. i do believe there are some parts of conventional morality that are inherent to every man, but i do not believe that implies it came from a "god") i tend to think this way of life (if possible, which it is not, because no man lives in complete reversal of christian values) can hardly result in any personal satisfaction for the adherent.

Claiming to be and actually being are very different. For the ones that are serious, obviously they're stupid, but I have a feeling the majority who claim to practice devil worship only do so within the context of the band and what the band is supposed to represent.

So you seem to be saying we should respect Christian Satanic lyrics because they aren't genuine and represent juvenile attempts at mocking the established order? Sounds like fun!

I didn't say you should respect anything. What I said is that you shouldn't discount lyrics which praise the Christian Satan out of hand as a poor attack against Christianity, because you have to examine it within the context of how the band is using it, which means looking at more than just the lyrics. Obviously if the lyrics are juvenile then they're juvenile, but that wasn't my point.

 

[einride]

Claiming to be and actually being are very different. For the ones that are serious, obviously they're stupid, but I have a feeling the majority who claim to practice devil worship only do so within the context of the band and what the band is supposed to represent.

sure. as i did say, i think the primitive "devil worship" that reverses christianity utterly is so impractical that no one probably practices it in reality. however, i'm naive enough to most of the time give people the benefit of the doubt when they say they're doing something and i have no way to check that the opposite is true, i guess.

what i guess i'm hoping for is a logical defense of this standpoint or "faith", but i've never been able to find one. when people try to explain they either tangle themselves up in pointless rhetoric or invoke some sort of "well i do not need logic, i worship chaos and satan" cop-out.

but talk is cheap and myspace accounts are free so that's the way it goes i guess

 

[skeptik]

I see what you're saying and mostly agree, but I would just say that I think that the majority of metal bands that attack Christianity rely more on an emotive presentation rather than a cerebral one, so that resorting to blasphemy is more suited to their music than trying to lay out a logical argument in the lyrics, which seems kind of hard to do. Plus, of course, Satan is cool.

 

[General Zod]

if this was true (expanding the argument to include not only "religious criticism") i would probably not listen to music

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. To build an argument against entire belief system, especially in a "profound" way, requires books, not songs.

Zod

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Some of the most profound truths revealed themselves as poems.

 

[lurch70]

or Confucius quotes

 

[einride]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. To build an argument against entire belief system, especially in a "profound" way, requires books, not songs.

Zod

Some of the most profound truths revealed themselves as poems.

yes. there are very few things that can not be said in poem or song by a sufficiently skilled poet, and those that can not are probably not worth saying in the first place.

 

[cthulufhtagn]

not metal, but

I got styles you can't copy bitch, it's the triple six
in the mix, straight from H-E-double-hockey sticks
Every Sunday, a nun lay from my gun spray
Fuck Carlito, we doin' shit the Devil Son's way
Every minute, my style switches up, they said a real man
won't hit a girl well I ain't real cause I beat bitches up
I use words that's ill, L got nerves of steel
I'm cool, but every now and then I get a urge to kill
I'm takin lives for a great price, I'm the type
to snap in heaven with a Mac-11 and rape Christ
And I'm fast to put a cap in a fag chest
The Big L smash stress, cause hell is my address
I'm on some satanic shit, strictly, little kids
be wakin up cryin, yellin, "Mommy Big L is comin to get me!"

or Confucius quotes

Man who jump off cliff, jump to conclusion!

 

[General Zod]

Some of the most profound truths revealed themselves as poems.

Poems can be profound. But the question here, can a song offer a profound argument against a religion. I say no. I say no such song exists. I say no song exists, that makes a profound argument for anything. Songs aren't a tool for debate.

Zod

 

[einride]

Poems can be profound. But the question here, was a song offering a profound argument. No such song exists, making a profound argument against anything.

Zod

i strongly disagree but i can not post examples at this time

however, you're welcome to tell me what the difference between a "poem" and a "song lyric" is, excepting that one is explicitely written to be sung.

 

[General Zod]

i strongly disagree but i can not post examples at this time

When you can, please do. And no need to post examples (plural). Simply post one song that makes a "eloquent case against Christianity".

however, you're welcome to tell me what the difference between a "poem" and a "song lyric" is, excepting that one is explicitely written to be sung.

Keep in mind, I merely said "poems can be profound". Songs can also be profound. Neither can make an "eloquent case against Christianity". Neither format is a sufficient tool for building a "case" or an argument.

Zod

 

[skeptik]

I don't think he was making a distinction between lyric and poem, but rather profundity and a profound argument.

 

[einride]

When you can, please do. And no need to post examples (plural). Simply post one song that makes a "eloquent case against Christianity".

that's not what you said. you said "profound argument against anything."

Keep in mind, I merely said "poems can be profound". Songs can also be profound. Neither can make an "eloquent case against Christianity". Neither format is a sufficient tool for building a "case" or an argument.

you're most terribly wrong

 

[einride]

I don't think he was making a distinction between lyric and poem, but rather profundity and a profound argument.

fine. i still say he's wrong as long as you don't set precise standards for the form of the argument -- i.e. i don't doubt that there is no song lyric or poem in the world that constitutes a formal academic argument but that's not what i think about when i say a song can constitute a valid argument for or against a concept. i like when things are minimal and say as much in ten lines as another man might need a book of 500 pages to put forth.

 

[General Zod]

that's not what you said. you said "profound argument against anything."

I did say that. And I'll happily stand behind that statement. Show me a Metal song that makes a "profound" argument against anything.

you're most terribly wrong

Yeah... you keep claiming I'm wrong, and you keep quoting me, yet you keep failing to provide any evidence to support your claim. Again, show me one Metal song, that in your words, "made an actual good, reasonably eloquent case against god."

I'm waiting...

Zod

 

[einride]

Yeah... you keep claiming I'm wrong, and you keep quoting me

twice. i'm sorry if that makes you feel really uncomfortable or something, but i already said i wasn't going to post examples until later

I'm waiting...

keep waiting because i'm going to band rehearsal for a bit

 

[General Zod]

twice. i'm sorry if that makes you feel really uncomfortable or something, but i already said i wasn't going to post examples until later

Doesn't make me uncomfortable in the slightest. It actually makes me all tingly.

I patiently await your profundity.

Zod