The official FIFA World Cup Deutschland 2006 Thread

hyena said:
Next we'll be judging people's character based on the fact that maybe they punch trees or parked cars when they're drunk.

I read that as "punch trees or park cars when they're drunk", and immediately thought of the terrible stigma society should indeed put on those who Park Under the Influence.


(and yes, yes, capital letters, get used to it.)
 
There is a lot of fascism in italian football though. I saw a documentary like a year ago, and it was said that in some fan clubs, there are photos of Hitler and Mussolini, openly shown and all. Also, several coaches said they'd like to hire certain players but couldnt because they were black and they couldnt garantuee for their safety. Also, there is Paolo di Canio who's made the Hitler salute to his fans at least twice and as far as I know, he's only gotten a fee after the FIFA insisted on it.
Of course, there's fascism in football everywhere, some may remember the match Spain - England, during which the spanish supporters imitated ape screams to insult the black players among the english, or the imitation of evading gas in the Netherlands when Ajax Amsterdam is playing, a reference to the Holocaust, because Ajax Amsterdam is traditionally a jewish club.
What's stunned me about the italian scene though is that no one seemed to care much, di Canio was even offered a place in the nationalist party by Mussolini's niece, who was (or still is) head of that party.

The videos show exactly the side of the italian football I despise. Also, I believe those fouls dont just happen, which is why I tend to dislike the italian team in general, unless they play really good football, as did the argentinians this WC
 
Di Canio, as far as I know, makes that salute everytime he goes off the pitch, whether sent off or substituted. He claims that its the old Roman salute. Its hard, because it is true, and you cannot judge his intentions. But if he screamed "Heil Hitler" making that salute, its all clear. Nazi Germany compromised many symbols, like this salute, or svastika etc. And fascism in football is something every country has to deal with. There are several cities in my country with strong skinhead football fan bases, and they give hell to all coloured players (like when they threw bananas at the black substitute players when they were stretching out - these things are funny, and that makes it worse, because the people who would otherwise be against any fascist activities laugh).
 
Well, with a DUCE tattoo (italian equivalent to Führer) everyone can guess on their own, eh?
And it's just amazing that this halfass excuse gets him off, too
 
@tali: well, while by no means i want to defend football hooligans, i think that the whole idea of fascism being commonplace in italian football is a bit exaggerated. there's only a team who has a stereotypical bonehead kind of support, and that's Lazio. they have a single sworn enemy, the Livorno club, whose supporters are also very violent and they go by the opposite political faith - most of them are far-left red army skinheads (RASH). what you say about Di Canio is true, and there is a counterpart in this case too, i.e. Livorno's Cristiano Lucarelli giving a raised fist salute to the fans every time he scores. When Lazio and Livorno play each other there is always more police than fans, the cops end up getting severely hurt each time, and the fans from the opposing teams complain about 'political persecution' when they get arrested.

but aside from these two teams, supporters are not really into politics. you see the occasional celtic cross in the stands for Milan, but that's about it - of course there's thugs on all sides, but they're not fascist, just thugs. black players - it depends on the region. i concur on the fact that you'll hardly see a black man playing for Lazio for more than one season, and small teams in the South sometimes have racist supporters. On the other hand, northern teams have heaps of black players, especially Juventus.

small aside on Alessandra Mussolini: she's not a real politician, and she's not even a right-winger. she's a former showgirl who is shamelessly cashing in on her surname, so you have a bunch of octuagenaries who vote for her because they really like to write 'Mussolini' on the ballot, but every time she talks about 'sensitive' topics such as women's rights nobody really understands why she should be considered far-right, actually on some things she's got a mindset that would place her in the opposing coalition. of course, tho, she knows that the Mussolini publicity stunt wouldn't work on the other side, so she intersperses her declarations about the issues with moving references to her family (which may or may not be sincere after all, she probably really loves them). anyway, nobody should worry about Alessandra Mussolini, she gets a very meagre percentage of the vote and that's only because of her last name and because some think she has a pretty face. :lol:

@marduk: but why should people behave along predictable patterns? what i'm trying to say is that viz has the right to get emotional/angry as much as anyone else, even if normally he's reasonable. it doesn't tell me anything about him different from 'like every other person on the planet, he sometimes gets angry'. also, he tells me that maybe his weak spot is football. but should judge someone badly because every now and then he flares up? everyone does, including me, you, and all the rest. i'm just saying that you shouldn't be disappointed in him for getting annoyed at the outcome of a football match.
 
hyena said:
@tali: well, while by no means i want to defend football hooligans, i think that the whole idea of fascism being commonplace in italian football is a bit exaggerated. there's only a team who has a stereotypical bonehead kind of support, and that's Lazio. they have a single sworn enemy, the Livorno club, whose supporters are also very violent and they go by the opposite political faith - most of them are far-left red army skinheads (RASH). what you say about Di Canio is true, and there is a counterpart in this case too, i.e. Livorno's Cristiano Lucarelli giving a raised fist salute to the fans every time he scores. When Lazio and Livorno play each other there is always more police than fans, the cops end up getting severely hurt each time, and the fans from the opposing teams complain about 'political persecution' when they get arrested.

well that's not actually the case.. italian football is nowadays extremely influences by extreme politics. I know much about it as I live in a city where ultras (hooligans) are on an extreme left-wing side, while all the cities around are extreme-right if we consider ultras movements.

in the last years fights and clashes between supporters are more political than ever. If in th 70s and 80s fights were a good occasion to show who was the strongest, nowadays it's alla about neo-fascists and neo-nazis against left-wing radicals and no-globals.

Lazio is not the most influenced city in italy: Verona Hellas' supporters (serie B) are known to be the most violent and politically dependent supporters in Italy. This is because in Verona there is the general HQ of Forza Nuova, which is the main and strongest right-wing extremist party in Italy.

But it's not just about Lazio and Verona Hellas. Juve's, Inter's (at least Irriducibili, while not the Boys San Ultras), Roma's, Catania's, Treviso's, Ascoli's, Palermo's supporters are on a very strong right-wing position. Cities that have a strong or relatively strong left-wing position are Venezia-Mestre (where I live), Modena, Livorno, Bergamo, Pescara and Terni.

Racism is not very common in Italy: even neo-nazis tend to respest black players, just beacuse italian teams are full of them, luckily. I love to have multinational teams!

One of the few totally a-political supporters groups are those of Brescia, who actually fight against politics in football, their only values being fair ultras-style fights based just on team-passion, not politics. Or at least this is what they stand out for.
 
Taliesin said:
What's stunned me about the italian scene though is that no one seemed to care much

Oh, no, they do care.

In fact, they care enough to try their best to keep the pseudo-hooligans thing going for as long and as steady as possible. It is a known fact that most teams do not really have fans going to see any match anymore: all the people crowding the stadiums on both sides are somehow supported and encouraged by the clubs themselves (and I don't mean the players, of course) to come to the match and stick around afterwards. The sticking around part also has a threatening function: every so often, the clubs send supposedly "crazed" hooligans to beat up players of the opposing team or - even more often - their own, when they're guilty of playing lazily or being distracted by activities that have little to do with training for the next match. Quite obviously, the people who are recruited to perform this kind of tasks have an inclination to violence, that is however merely employed by the system of powerful soccer teams, so it's not as if they're drawn to soccer due to inherent connections between supporting in sports and aggressive behavior. Also rather obviously, organized groups with the purpose of instigating and promoting violence have a fascination - and even a need - for symbols that can be traced back to a history of aggressive (mis)use.

There are probably two main reasons why blatant fascist undertones are not crushed by the long arm of the law. First and most important, some of the clubs are way too powerful to be told much at all. For all purposes, they are akin to a criminal organization operating outside of the law and according to rules the State very rarely meddles with: while this is not due to them carrying weapons and killing meddlers, the amount of money circulating in this sub-culture is by far one of the largest sources of income for both the clubs and - indirectly - the State. They wield enough economical power to be allowed to "do their thing" without interference, unless somebody dies. We still don't know what happens if the violent crime is as trivial as a mere kidnapping, but stay tuned for an answer in the coming hours! ;)

The second reason is more subtle, and the result of a (mostly) not very conscious choice on the part of post-World War II culture in Italy. While at first everyone kept clamoring to come down hard on each and every reference to the fascist regime - and very strict rules were introduced to this purpose - later on it seemed wiser to allow innocuous or straight-out ridiculous propaganda to survive in the underwood of some groups and cultures. I imagine that the reasoning behind this could be seen as something like this: total annihilation of extreme nationalism is next to impossible, and we're not even sure that a vibrant patriotic reaction on the part of the population might not come in handy at some point in the future. If we keep showing the citizens a nihilistic side that implies this country is a free-for-all shopping mall of unconnected elements of tradition and culture, the unity of the State could easily be compromised by groups who call for a disaggregation of it to serve the autonomy of this or that minority. On the other hand, by giving some old farts and a few young hotheads an outlet in the shape of a now harmless cultural fad from the twenties, we can keep a finger on the pulse of nationalism in the country.
It seems to me that this - more or less overt - decision has been working fine so far: despite widespread ignorance about the events that took place during the last century (down to almost complete oblivion of the real reasons why the fascist regime was a dictatorship, which have nothing to do with rhetoric speeches or wars or military parades), no political party with a program or symbols directly inspired by Fascism has ever obtained a significant support on election day. On the other hand, parties with straightforward references to Communism consistently receive (put together) 11-12% of the votes.

In this, I believe Italy is quite different from Germany. Then again, after WW II Italy was more or less left alone to be a country of its own, whereas in Germany the public opinion was forced to reject the Nazis at gun-point, with no room for ifs and buts for decades. And no, I'm definitely not saying I'd approve of reconsidering either Nazism or Fascism with a dose of ifs and buts, but for both the rabid idiots who would and the historians and scholars who don't like to be forced to express a theory in terms of black/white and added token reminders that this was bad, mmmk kids? it could serve a practical purpose.

As for the players, we certainly have a few of them who are actually infatuated with fascist ideas themselves. It's not hard to see why: they come from the same pond as the "fans" and breathe in that kind of trite shit day in and day out. Then you have to consider that - while a modicum of intellect is necessary in almost any human activity - they're not really chosen because of their outstanding mind skills or enlightened world view, and I hope not to sound too cynical if I confess that it is my strong belief that you can pick eleven individuals from any country in the universe and almost universally find your hands full with nine, if not ten imbeciles.

My point in an earlier post was that generalizations are useful when you have a reliable sample. Sports fans do not have reliable samples for their generalizations, in the same way that people trying to assess the characteristics of a foreign population based on the features of its immigrants don't have a reliable sample either. Such is the basis of (small scale, ok) racism. To be perfectly honest, those who are "in the know" enough to be aware of the fact that the Italian catcher is an abysmal example of a fascist, racist, and altogether retarded cunt, either do not care because approve of his ideas due to an inclination to worship the ground he trods on, or actively despise him for his stupidity. The point I'm trying to make here is that you never get to hear of the many who'd happily kick his World Cup-winning butt, because I'm sure the news in Germany give plenty of room to the worship of famous soccer players, and very little to random opinions from Italy.

I'm still inclined to believe that all the countries where soccer is the be-all-end-all of sports show the same attitude, quirks, and differences amongst fans and non-fans: for instance, my heart goes out to all the French who smiled with delight at the misfortune of Zidane, a player who's known for his sudden, unmotivated, and uncontrollable bursts of rage.
 
@nico: i stand corrected now. i was under the impression that fascism in the verona scene, for example, just concerned a tiny minority of fans, while here a large majority of the lazio fans are fascists... well, sounds like i was wrong. :)

@rahvin: agreed 98% :)
 
hyena said:
@marduk: but why should people behave along predictable patterns? what i'm trying to say is that viz has the right to get emotional/angry as much as anyone else, even if normally he's reasonable. it doesn't tell me anything about him different from 'like every other person on the planet, he sometimes gets angry'. also, he tells me that maybe his weak spot is football. but should judge someone badly because every now and then he flares up? everyone does, including me, you, and all the rest. i'm just saying that you shouldn't be disappointed in him for getting annoyed at the outcome of a football match.

Ive never said they should. And if its a matter of right, then I have every right to criticise his outburst and feel disappointed in him. After all, the whole discussion started with Zidanes foul on Materazzi, and Viz himself said that his reaction was as stupid as Zidanes. Yes, Ive had my share of emotional crap posts as well, and youve had your share of outsmarting everybody, including yourself (sorry, I had to :) ). I just dont like such surprises.
 
rahvin said:
Marduk's wife pre-reads each post by hyena and then summarizes it briefly out loud without the parts that might shock him. :p

My wife couldnt care less, shes got better things to do. And I decided that I could care less, I guess. :)
 
@lina: i think that gaia is the dog. :)

edit: if that was a joke, i just proved i'm completely stupid :lol:
 
hyena said:
edit: if that was a joke, i just proved i'm completely stupid :lol:

If Gaia is not the dog, on the other hand, straight back on his ignore list you go!

Marduk should have his dog register on this board, mainly because she's an awesome-looking dog and I'd love to contemplate a picture of her while I read her contribution to a thread about growling.