The Political & Philosophy Thread

For example, if farms have a drop in production, we'll all be paying more for groceries.

Farming is a strange topic to me in this context. I'm generalising here so forgive me, but rural peoples in America seem to be sneered at by the left, as are big corporations obsessed by their profit margin, yet in this instance you're appealing to emotion (yet wrapped in economic concern) with regards to the farming industry even though I'd be willing to wager that a lot of the farming industry supported a Trump presidency. I could be wrong though, but call it a hunch.

Is it logical to assume that if prices are raised on farming goods, people will have to buy less or buy elsewhere, forcing the farming industry to adjust pricing where appropriate in order to compete?

I would expect that the claim that they send "most of their money back to Mexico" is hyperbole, unless you have evidence to back it up.

I have no evidence (will Google after lunch) and it probably is hyperbole. But if you consider even that a small percentage do send their money back, that's not insignificant in the overall matter of pros vs cons of illegal immigration on the economy.

facist minions:

*Fascist and also, never heard of fascists that support keeping the populace armed. I guess Hitler didn't know what he was doing.
 
Coming from someone who can't even substantiate his subjective perceptions with evdience and then doesn't respond to actual economic research that annihilates his dumbass economic theory, I'll take your evaluations of people's intelligence and knowledge with a grain of salt, to say the least.

"Actual economic evidence/research".

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/

The most conservative estimate offered was the following:

The professor, Donald Huddle, in a separate exercise estimated net costs between $16 billion and $21.6 billion for 1994, the GAO report noted. The 1994 range of estimates assumed an undocumented population between 4 million and 5.4 million. (Huddle also rebutted the Urban Institute’s rebuttal.)

Those are 1994 dollars. At the accepted target inflation rates (2%, below real inflation), dollars double every 36 years. That means that even the most conservative estimate reported by the GAO is somewhere around 30 billion dollars. Not huge, but also not negligible.

https://betterexplained.com/articles/the-rule-of-72/

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

Better stats suggest a 6% or 10% inflation rate. This would push the net cost of immigration closer above 60 billion easily. Remember these are net costs. That considers any losses to the US economy. Any of these numbers fall short of the cost of the most costly Trump anti-immigration option: "The Wall":

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-cost-us.html

On Thursday, Senate leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky, said Congress will follow through on Trump's border wall order, and McConnell estimated it will cost $15 billion at most — he cited a range of $12 billion to $15 billion.

I know you won't, but you really need to take stock of your intellectual inabilities. You're a school teacher, you need to do better for your students, at a minimum. It's the ethical thing to do.
 
Last edited:
First off all, none of what you posted addresses the economic crash that would occur should mass deportations occur. You claimed that Americans could just fill the jobs left behind if all undocumented people were deported. I provided evidence to the contrary. You have provided no rebuttal. Concede the point or provide a research based rebuttal (I'm not gonna let you weasel out of this).

Now, it seems, like always, you are trying to pivot. I'm fine with discussing the topic you brought up, since it is related, but you must respond or concede the above point.


The article is rightfully skeptical of some of the far right estimates, especially considering the sources. Overall, it's inconclusive.

Trump said, "Illegal immigration costs our country more than $113 billion a year."

Trump presented this figure as a hard fact to make his case, and not as the rough, high-end estimate that it is.

The figure matches a 2013 study by a group that wants to reduce immigration, FAIR.

It’s uncertain how much immigrants in the United States illegally cost taxpayers, but FAIR’s data is largely based on broad estimates and assumptions. Another report by a conservative think tank pegged the amount at about $85 billion a year. Reports by pro-immigration or neutral groups have come in significantly lower, and other reports have been inconclusive.

Estimating the costs of illegal immigration is extremely difficult and produces dramatically different figures, depending on the source. Yes, there are costs. But Trump is selecting the highest of all possible estimates from a range that varies widely.

We rate Trump’s statement Mostly False.

The most conservative estimate offered was the following:

Those are 1994 dollars. At the accepted target inflation rates (2%, below real inflation), dollars double every 36 years. That means that even the most conservative estimate reported by the GOA is somewhere around 30 billion dollars. Not huge, but also not negligible.

https://betterexplained.com/articles/the-rule-of-72/

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

Better stats suggest a 6% or 10% inflation rate. This would push the net cost of immigration closer above 60 billion easily. Remember these are net costs. That considers any losses to the US economy.

I would hold off on going with any of the numbers, (especially FAIR, which is not a legitimate source). The other findings are inconclusive, with lots of hypotheticals or are out of date. Thus far, all the article has shown is that undocumented immigrants cost the US something, but how much, we don't know, or even have a strong ballpark estimate.

To really evaluate the cost, we would need an itemized breakdown of the expenses. I would specifically want to know how much has gone into education of undocumented children. If those children grow up to join our work force, it's an investment (just like investing in citizen children), especially if they are given a path to citizenship. If they are deported, it's a sunk cost. It makes more sense to me to finish what we started, educate the youth, give them a path to citizenship, and let them contribute to our economy.

Any of these numbers fall short of the cost of the most costly Trump anti-immigration option: "The Wall":

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-cost-us.html

You need to clarify the connection you're trying to make here. It appears as if you are making an apples to apples comparison between the annual cost of immigrants to the US vs. the cost of building the Wall. If so, that's stupid as fuck. The Wall won't magically make immigrants disappear, so there's no point in directly comparing the two costs, as if it were a "pick one" situation. If we build the Wall, we're still paying the cost for undocumented immigrants, but now we're also paying for the Wall.

If you were trying to do something else by bringing up the cost of Wall, you will need to elaborate.
 
Is mass deportation of illegal immigrants actually proposed? Just curious.

The government trying to do anything en masse sounds terrible. Because they're terrible at doing even the simplest of things.

If those children grow up to join our work force, it's an investment (just like investing in citizen children), especially if they are given a path to citizenship. If they are deported, it's a sunk cost. It makes more sense to me to finish what we started, educate the youth, give them a path to citizenship, and let them contribute to our economy.

Isn't this just encouraging illegal immigration?
 
Is mass deportation of illegal immigrants actually proposed? Just curious.

The government trying to do anything en masse sounds terrible. Because they're terrible at doing even the simplest of things.

Trump initially said he would deport all undocumented immigrants "so fast your head will spin." Now he's thinned that down 3 million "criminals" although his definition of criminals includes people who have been charged but not convicted, as well as many other loose and ambiguous terms that would make it easy to target just about anybody undocumented.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-immigration-deportation.html

Isn't this just encouraging illegal immigration?

As I've said before, if we have reasonable immigration reform, there will be far less illegal immigration. Right now our system is obsolete and in desperate need of reform (and not in the type of reform Trump has in mind). Considering the low birth rate in the US (1.88 per woman), we actually need immigration to maintain the population. A drop in population is usually bad for the economy.
 
Population size should be appropriate to the economy. High population does not mean good economy. Right now there are not enough jobs or resources for the amount of people. Some thinning of the herd is necessary. Illegals, refugees and lefties need to fuck off.
 
"I'm against white people being a majority"

"I think only brown people migrate."

Trump initially said he would deport all undocumented immigrants "so fast your head will spin."

You're right I remember him saying that. This may seem like Trump apologism on my part, but honestly he's hyperbole manifested into orange form.

Still, he did say that and I agree that even if you are for removing all illegal immigrants (as opposed to just creating a path to citizenship for those already in America) doing it instantly would be absolutely retarded, expensive and basically impossible anyway. The fact that he's walking back things like this should be seen as a positive thing by all sides.

Now he's thinned that down 3 million "criminals" although his definition of criminals includes people who have been charged but not convicted, as well as many other loose and ambiguous terms that would make it easy to target just about anybody undocumented.

You'd think subcategorical policy for who gets deported would be pointless, considering the point of having immigration laws means illegal immigrants are to be deported once they're found to be illegally in the country. Whether they've committed crimes or not after the first crime seems irrelevant to me. I thought Australia was upside-down land. :rofl:

As I've said before, if we have reasonable immigration reform, there will be far less illegal immigration.

Yeah, because I assume you'll just be letting people in by greater numbers who don't necessarily deserve to enter.
 
Last edited:
Not really sure how you aren't arguing for letting in as many people as are willing to try. I don't dismiss ethics at all, but it seems to me that you're arguing in favour of being ethical to one group of people at another's expense.

That's what ethics is. You have to make concessions.

As it stands, immigrants who come to this country give up much more than they take. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that we leave the legal option for entering our country open to all immigrants, and that we don't bother with asinine policies like banning specific religions and building walls that won't do anything.

As far as unemployment in our country goes, there are many more pressing reasons for it than "immigrants took our jerbs!" The immigration argument is political rhetoric.

That's the only reason (and you are correct, no way in hell Mexico pays)??

Um... yes? I don't think the wall is actually going to do anything. I think it's a waste of time and money.

If there's any further reason, it would be the symbolism of it, which of course is very relevant in my opinion. I don't want to live in fucking Oceania (I don't happen to think that the world we live in today is reminiscent of 1984, but I do think the wall conjures the specter of Orwell's totalitarian vision).


concentric-circles-diagram.jpg


People in Latin America or Saudi Arabia are like, 3 more circles removed or something.

You're spitting out things I'm not familiar with. Am I supposed to see that and remember "oh right, I'm the most important person to myself, obviously"?
 
It would effect everybody, not just corporations. For example, if farms have a drop in production, we'll all be paying more for groceries. California is the largest producer in the nation. Dismantle its workforce and we'll all feel it.

there would clearly be an intermittent period where the shortage of workers will cause grocery prices to escalate while also raising the wages of these workers, since they are in such high demand, right?

to act in absolutes is strange to me here. hiccup period, but jobs/industry lost forever? I don't get that perspective
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dak
That's what ethics is. You have to make concessions.
It's not really the government's job to make concessions for non-citizens at the expense of citizens, surely? Seems entirely backwards to me.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that we leave the legal option for entering our country open to all immigrants, and that we don't bother with asinine policies like banning specific religions and building walls that won't do anything.
We've already agreed on this point, like thrice by now.

So anyway, I'm hearing that the #MuslimBan is already negatively impacting people, is it already implemented?
 
First off all, none of what you posted addresses the economic crash that would occur should mass deportations occur. You claimed that Americans could just fill the jobs left behind if all undocumented people were deported. I provided evidence to the contrary. You have provided no rebuttal. Concede the point or provide a research based rebuttal (I'm not gonna let you weasel out of this).

I said there were enough unemployed Americans to fill those jobs. Illegal immigrant estimates are at 11 million, with an estimated 8 million working. The official unemployment rate (which excludes people who could work but aren't even looking) is at 4.9% equals ~15.5 million Americans. There are nearly twice as many Americans actively looking for work as there are illegal immigrant workers. There's nothing to weasel out of.

Your paper was calculating the cost of mass deportations. I haven't been talking about mass deportations.


The article is rightfully skeptical of some of the far right estimates, especially considering the sources. Overall, it's inconclusive.

I would hold off on going with any of the numbers, (especially FAIR, which is not a legitimate source). The other findings are inconclusive, with lots of hypotheticals or are out of date. Thus far, all the article has shown is that undocumented immigrants cost the US something, but how much, we don't know, or even have a strong ballpark estimate.

To really evaluate the cost, we would need an itemized breakdown of the expenses. I would specifically want to know how much has gone into education of undocumented children. If those children grow up to join our work force, it's an investment (just like investing in citizen children), especially if they are given a path to citizenship. If they are deported, it's a sunk cost. It makes more sense to me to finish what we started, educate the youth, give them a path to citizenship, and let them contribute to our economy.

I took the most conservative estimate that was produced for the GAO, and of course you want to ignore what I actually quoted. You also claim it's outdated. I provided the basic rule for translating costs from year to year (even ignoring the fact that the number of illegal immigrants has doubled since 1994, so really the super conservative number provided should be doubled).

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

You even invoked the sunk cost fallacy!

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/173/Sunk-Cost-Fallacy

You need to clarify the connection you're trying to make here. It appears as if you are making an apples to apples comparison between the annual cost of immigrants to the US vs. the cost of building the Wall. If so, that's stupid as fuck. The Wall won't magically make immigrants disappear, so there's no point in directly comparing the two costs, as if it were a "pick one" situation. If we build the Wall, we're still paying the cost for undocumented immigrants, but now we're also paying for the Wall.

If you were trying to do something else by bringing up the cost of Wall, you will need to elaborate.

The current thread discussion has been primarily about the wall/preventing more illegal immigrants from entering the country. Not mass deportations. The wall may be a hamfisted option for preventing illegals from entering, but it is an option. Obviously building the wall is an added cost, but if it's even marginally effective it is possible that it pays for itself.

Edit: @Einherjar86 : I find it interesting you have never seen a chart like that before.
 
It's not really the government's job to make concessions for non-citizens at the expense of citizens, surely? Seems entirely backwards to me.

We've already agreed on this point, like thrice by now.

Well, I feel the need to reiterate since you keep seeming to twist erroneous claims out of my argument.

Governments serve as intermediary bodies between citizens, but also between citizens and non-citizens. In our current global political climate, I think certain countries can afford to step in and offer some support for non-citizens that want to be citizens. And if you say you already agree with this, then stop asking about it.

So anyway, I'm hearing that the #MuslimBan is already negatively impacting people, is it already implemented?

Yes, people are being detained at airports. It's not strictly "Muslim" yet, but it is targeting Muslims.

Edit: @Einherjar86 : I find it interesting you have never seen a chart like that before.
 
Well, I feel the need to reiterate since you keep seeming to twist erroneous claims out of my argument.

I haven't done that.

Governments serve as intermediary bodies between citizens, but also between citizens and non-citizens. In our current global political climate, I think certain countries can afford to step in and offer some support for non-citizens that want to be citizens. And if you say you already agree with this, then stop asking about it.

No I don't agree with that part. The only things I've agreed with you on are the wall is dumb symbolism and the Muslim ban is bad, so how about you stop reiterating those two issues, because I'm not bringing them up anywhere.

Do our countries not already offer support by allowing legal immigration? Not really sure what you're implying here. Also who decides what can be afforded? Clearly the Trump phenomenon came about in part because other people decided on behalf of the middle and working classes that illegal immigration can be afforded at their expense. If not for the electoral system, these people would still be geting reamed by those that think the country can and should afford it.
 
@Einherjar86 I think you accidently a reply.


Scott Adams on the 90 ban
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/156532225711/the-persuasion-filter-and-immigration

Trump’s temporary immigration ban set a mental anchor in your brain that is frankly shocking. It will make his eventual permanent immigration plan (”extreme vetting”) look tame by comparison. The Persuasion Filter says that’s his strategy. Because that’s ALWAYS his strategy. He acts the same way every time. He wrote a book about it. He talks about it publicly. Then he does it right in front of us, over and over. And no matter how many times he does it, half the country still thinks the opening offer is the real one.

I’ve mentioned in this blog a few times that persuasion works even when the subject of the persuasion recognizes all the techniques as they happen. This is a perfect case. The left has been watching Trump make big offers and dial them back for the past year. And yet they still think this time it will be different. The Persuasion Filter says that 70-year old Trump will act the same way today as he has for the past several decades: Big first offer, then negotiate.
 
I haven't done that.

Yes, you have.

No I don't agree with that part. The only things I've agreed with you on are the wall is dumb symbolism and the Muslim ban is bad, so how about you stop reiterating those two issues, because I'm not bringing them up anywhere.

Fine. Let's both fuck off about it.

Do our countries not already offer support by allowing legal immigration? Not really sure what you're implying here. Also who decides what can be afforded? Clearly the Trump phenomenon came about in part because other people decided on behalf of the middle and working classes that illegal immigration can be afforded at their expense. If not for the electoral system, these people would still be geting reamed by those that think the country can and should afford it.

Too bad if you don't agree. Welcome to globalism.

My entire point has been that people are extending their concerns/anxieties about illegal immigration to unethical and irrational applications of immigration law. That's all I've been trying to say. If you're cool with that, then I don't see any reason to keep arguing.

@Einherjar86 I think you accidently a reply.

:D

Coincidentally, complete silence was a fitting response to your comment.
 
You're right I remember him saying that. This may seem like Trump apologism on my part, but honestly he's hyperbole manifested into orange form.

Still, he did say that and I agree that even if you are for removing all illegal immigrants (as opposed to just creating a path to citizenship for those already in America) doing it instantly would be absolutely retarded, expensive and basically impossible anyway. The fact that he's walking back things like this should be seen as a positive thing by all sides.

You'd think subcategorical policy for who gets deported would be pointless, considering the point of having immigration laws means illegal immigrants are to be deported once they're found to be illegally in the country. Whether they've committed crimes or not after the first crime seems irrelevant to me. I thought Australia was upside-down land. :rofl:

There's a pretty big difference between someone with a violent criminal record and a mother whose a maid at the local motel. Our laws have always prioritized deporting the former (let's not forget that the Obama admin broke the record for deportations), but with Trump's new policy, if that mom got arrested at some point for driving without a license, she's classified in the same manner as they violent criminal. So would someone who was charged for a crime, but not convicted.

Now, it's obvious why someone that holds my position would be against that, but why should even someone who is opposed to immigration be against Trump's policy? Because it's not as easy as kicking someone over the boarder. They still have to have to go to immigration court (which is already backlogged), which its own process (including the right to appeal). The more time and energy you waste attacking law abiding undocumented immigrants living here, the longer its gonna take to deport the people who actually shouldn't be here. Simply put, if you widen your net too much, it will take you longer to find your target.

Yeah, because I assume you'll just be letting people in by greater numbers who don't necessarily deserve to enter.

Again, if we had an updated Immigration system, this wouldn't be a problem. Right now, its extremely hard to get a visa for an "unskilled" worker, but yet that is where the job demand is. If we made a reasonable system to help these people get citizenship and/or permanent residence we could make it easier for people to come here legally. This would actually HELP in vetting, and give good, honest workers less of a reason to come here illegally. That in turn, would make it easier to target those who are actually a threat. I'm not saying it would be a perfect system without flaws, but it would be absolutely better than what we have now.

I said there were enough unemployed Americans to fill those jobs. Illegal immigrant estimates are at 11 million, with an estimated 8 million working. The official unemployment rate (which excludes people who could work but aren't even looking) is at 4.9% equals ~15.5 million Americans. There are nearly twice as many Americans actively looking for work as there are illegal immigrant workers. There's nothing to weasel out of.

I provided the evidence in the Business Insider article, and you just ignored it. Here let me provide the evidence again, this time from the actual research article. Provide an evidence-based rebuttal or concede the point.

When they refer to the "lower bound estimate" that SPECIFICALLY addresses the theory you're throwing out there about citizens taking over the jobs. Of course, because they took more than ten seconds to think about it, they take account of the unemployment rate in the given industry, something you consistently fail to do (really stupid of you, as I've pointed out to you numerous times in the past).

I recommend looking at the article on the actual website, as the chart doesn't transfer clearly, but I've pasted the most pertinent part below.

https://www.americanactionforum.org...moving-undocumented-immigrants/#ixzz4XBDDcAx9

For our lower-bound estimate, to find how many employed undocumented immigrants could be replaced by native and lawful foreign-born workers, we first have to estimate how many native and lawful foreign-born workers are actually available to fill the undocumented immigrant workers’ jobs. For this, we examine unemployment among native and lawful foreign-born workers in each industry. These are the workers who are jobless and actively looking for work. We assume that these unemployed workers would fill the jobs left by the removed undocumented immigrants until the industry’s unemployment rate falls to the long-run natural unemployment rate. The Congressional Budget Office determined that in 2012, the long-run natural unemployment rate was 5.1 percent.[7] Generally hovering around 5 percent, the long-run natural unemployment rate is the rate at which the labor force is considered to be at full employment, as no one is unemployed due to fluctuating economic conditions and those who remain unemployed tend to be transitioning between jobs. With the natural rate of unemployment reached in each industry, we designate the remaining unfilled jobs to be the lower-bound labor decline.

We turn to the unpublished CPS labor force figures to estimate private sector unemployment rates and levels among native and lawful foreign-born workers in each industry. Specifically, we reduce each industry’s labor force by size of the undocumented immigrant labor force. Then with the remaining native and lawful foreign-born workers, we calculate 2012 unemployment and unemployment above the long-run natural rate of unemployment. For each industry, the unemployment rate above the long-run natural rate is simply the percentage point difference between the unemployment rate and the long-run natural unemployment rate (5.1 percent). We then multiply that percentage point difference by the native and lawful foreign-born labor force to estimate the number of unemployed workers in each industry above the natural rate. It is important to note that we in effect assume that unemployment rates for undocumented workers are the same as native and lawful foreign-born workers.

Table 2 displays by industry both overall 2012 unemployment among native and lawful foreign-born workers and unemployment above the long-run natural rate of 5.1 percent. The latter represents the number of native and lawful foreign-born workers who are available to replace the employed undocumented immigrants.

Table 2: Native and Lawful Foreign-Born Worker Unemployment by Industry in 2012
Industry
Unemployment

Unemployment Above Natural
Rate Workers Rate
Workers

Agriculture, Forestry, Fishing, and Hunting
8.1%

157,732

3.0%

58,633

Mining
5.8%

57,171

0.7%

7,208

Construction
11.7%

991,262

6.6%

557,811

Manufacturing
7.1%

1,051,314

2.0%

300,819

Wholesale/Retail Trade
7.8%

1,593,154

2.7%

546,958

Transportation and Utilities
6.5%

396,470

1.4%

86,858

Information
7.3%

211,896

2.2%

63,031

Financial Activities
4.7%

455,282

-0.4%

-34,468

Professional and Business Services
7.8%

1,271,088

2.7%

437,904

Educational and Health Services
5.3%

1,211,056

0.2%

42,356

Leisure and Hospitality
9.9%

1,276,730

4.8%

619,147

Other Services
6.2%

431,460

1.1%

75,690

Total
7.3%

9,104,615

2.2%

2,761,947

*Negative because the long-run natural rate of unemployment is larger than the unemployment rate in that industry.
To find the lower-bound labor decline estimates in each industry, we subtract the number of unemployed native and lawful foreign-born workers above the long-run natural rate of unemployment (in Table 2) from the estimated number of employed undocumented immigrant workers (in Table 1). Meanwhile, for the upper-bound worker decline estimates, we assume no native or lawful foreign-born workers would fill the jobs left open by the removed undocumented workers. As a result, the upper-bound estimates in each industry are simply the number of employed undocumented immigrant workers in 2012.

We then calculate the decline in output in each industry that would result from removing all undocumented immigrant workers. To accomplish this, we divide real output by the number of employed people in each industry in 2012, which estimates output per employed worker in each industry that year.[8] We then multiply the estimated output per worker by the lower- and upper-bound reductions in labor to yield lower- and upper-bound declines in output in each industry. This method inherently assumes output per undocumented immigrant worker is the same as native and lawful foreign-born workers.

It is important to note that this analysis has a few shortcomings. Since 2012, unemployment rates have fallen substantially and there are very few industries that have unemployment rates significantly above the long-run natural rate today. This means that today there are likely very few unemployed native and lawful foreign-born workers who are available to replace the employed undocumented immigrants. In this regard, the lower-bound estimates may be larger than we project in this analysis. However, our methods also do not take into account the possibility that native and lawful foreign-born workers not currently looking for work may enter the labor force to fill the jobs that would be left open by removing all undocumented immigrants. Since there is no way of knowing how many workers would enter the labor force, we do not take into account this possibility, which would make the lower-bound labor and output declines smaller than what we project.

By the way, AAF is self-described as "center-right," so no claims of liberal bias please.

I took the most conservative estimate that was produced for the GAO, and of course you want to ignore what I actually quoted. You also claim it's outdated. I provided the basic rule for translating costs from year to year (even ignoring the fact that the number of illegal immigrants has doubled since 1994, so really the super conservative number provided should be doubled)

I didn't reject it because the number is too high, but rather because there has been too much change since 1994. If I had to guess, I would imagine the cost is higher than your adjusted projection, but I would like a stronger analysis before I went with a specific number.


Please stop talking about fallacies. While you are great at committing them (like the false equivalence you made between the cost of the Wall and the cost of undocumented immigrants), you are terrible at identifying them.

Research shows that legalizing undocumented immigrants would benefit the economy, in contrast to deporting them, which I have already demonstrated will harm it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-5-trillion-hit-from-deporting-undocumented-workers/

The final tally? It would cost at least $400 billion in new federal spending to handle the exodus, according to research published earlier this year from the American Action Forum. The free-market think tank also measured the economic hit from losing those roughly 11 million workers: a reduction of $1.6 trillion in America’s GDP.

On the other hand, legalizing the country’s undocumented workers would strengthen the U.S. economy, the Queens College economists found.

They noted, “Legalization would increase the productivity of undocumented workers, triggering further investment by employers. Legalization would increase the economic contribution of the unauthorized population by about 20%, to 3.6% of private-sector GDP.”