The Political & Philosophy Thread
- Thread starter End of Glory
- Start date
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
The Ozzman
Melted by feels
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
How many hours of this stuff do you want
Edit: To clarify, the fear mongering is in his deliberate attempts to conflate all Muslims with Radical Islamic terrorist organizations. He speaks in a way that portrays all Muslims as a threat.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
I think I'm missing something, Christopher Hitchens could have just as easily said this, albeit much more eloquently of course. It is hard to see who is who, when it comes to Islam. Radical Islamists specifically know this is true and use it as one of their main tactics leading up to attacks.
It's why countries that actually take the threat of radical Islam seriously do extreme vetting for all people coming into their countries. Israel is a good example.
Not to mention, there is a huge amount of hate for the west within Islam, especially if you're talking in the context of foreign policy. Ask a soldier in Muslim majority places they're deployed to and they will overwhelmingly tell you stories of people they thought were non-threatening civilians that attacked them.
So I'm not seeing the Islamophobia here (bullshit term).
Yeah no, the asshole that killed innocent people is to blame here.
It's why countries that actually take the threat of radical Islam seriously do extreme vetting for all people coming into their countries. Israel is a good example.
Not to mention, there is a huge amount of hate for the west within Islam, especially if you're talking in the context of foreign policy. Ask a soldier in Muslim majority places they're deployed to and they will overwhelmingly tell you stories of people they thought were non-threatening civilians that attacked them.
So I'm not seeing the Islamophobia here (bullshit term).
Yeah no, the asshole that killed innocent people is to blame here.
The Ozzman
Melted by feels
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
It's accurate to say Trump may have contributed to the man's radicalisation, in my opinion. But the main problem with radicals is that often what they're inspired by is nowhere near the degree they take it to.
It's precisely why I didn't agree with people saying Black Lives Matter were to blame for the cop killing sniper or those thug kidnappers, even though the rhetoric of Black Lives Matter may have contributed to the radicalisation of these people.
The Ozzman
Melted by feels
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
Trump is far from the only one to speak this way and I am critical of others who speak this way as well. It's an unjustified reductionism of a massive religion to the actions and beleifs of a small sect. However, as president of the United States, it matters more when Trump says it than say, when Hitchens says it.
As far as vetting, there were zero terrorist attacks by immigrants from those nations banned from entry into the US, which suggests the prior vetting was working. Now, if there are tweaks he wanted to make to make it even better, I'm fine with that. But the ban is unjustified and irrational.
Of course there is, especially for our military, which has terrorized people in these countries for decades now. However, the leap in logic is to assume that the people who actually hate and want to harm America are making it through our present vetting process. I can think of one terrorist attack (San Bernadido) done by an immigrant. The rest that I can think of were done by citizens. There could be others that I'm forgetting, but it seems that these are very rare phenomena.
As far as refugees committing attacks of terror, that's even rarer. I'm not sure there's ever been one. Certainly not since 9-11.
Therefore, I argue it's fear mongering, since the actions do not address a real problem. And to clarify, before I get misconstrued, I am not saying terrorism isn't a problem. I am saying that there is no evidence showing our vetting system for immigrants and refugees is a problem.
Agreed. But when you're a world leader (especially President of the US), you have to realize your words have an impact. You need to consider the influence they have not only on the average Joe, but also on the less mentally stable or more politicly extreme people hearing you. This is one of the reasons "disposition" was such a big talking point duringg the election cycle.
rms
Active Member
imagine if you said this about music, ranging from metal to rap
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
@crimsonfloyd If your current government thinks the vetting system might need to be upgraded and improved, I think a temporary ban on people coming from the places with high terrorist activity for 90 or 120 days (I forget which it is) is entirely reasonable.
Whether it actually solves anything is another topic though.
It may be a reductionism but whether its justified or not is not so black and white in my opinion and if people you're opposing also thought it was black and white, they would simply be attempting to indiscriminately bomb and kill Muslims. They aren't doing that, instead they're trying to do their best (as they see it) to make sure Americans are safe and the radicals are separated from the moderates.
Islam is the most regressive religion right now and it also controls a huge chunk of the world's population, we won't get anywhere if we can't talk about the reality of Islam seriously and honestly it's rather rich to watch Americans talk so high and mighty about Islam when their country isn't really exposed to the issues of Muslim immigration like other countries are.
There are Sharia Patrol gangs in Britain, going around threatening women for dressing indecently, or men they suspect as gay, or people enjoying a beer in the park. Your Muslims are mostly a bunch of young adult SJWs and old traditionalists with nice middle class families.
That's part of it, but not the whole picture. It's like nobody ever read the Al Qaeda manifesto and it's list of charges against the west.
Of course Al Qaeda =/= general Muslims globally, especially in terms of why they resent or hate the west, but it's not that far off from why the general global Muslim community hates the west.
Whether it actually solves anything is another topic though.
It may be a reductionism but whether its justified or not is not so black and white in my opinion and if people you're opposing also thought it was black and white, they would simply be attempting to indiscriminately bomb and kill Muslims. They aren't doing that, instead they're trying to do their best (as they see it) to make sure Americans are safe and the radicals are separated from the moderates.
Islam is the most regressive religion right now and it also controls a huge chunk of the world's population, we won't get anywhere if we can't talk about the reality of Islam seriously and honestly it's rather rich to watch Americans talk so high and mighty about Islam when their country isn't really exposed to the issues of Muslim immigration like other countries are.
There are Sharia Patrol gangs in Britain, going around threatening women for dressing indecently, or men they suspect as gay, or people enjoying a beer in the park. Your Muslims are mostly a bunch of young adult SJWs and old traditionalists with nice middle class families.
That's part of it, but not the whole picture. It's like nobody ever read the Al Qaeda manifesto and it's list of charges against the west.
Of course Al Qaeda =/= general Muslims globally, especially in terms of why they resent or hate the west, but it's not that far off from why the general global Muslim community hates the west.
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
Did obama not do the same(almost) thing with Iraq back in 2011(for six fucking months at that)? Where were all the protests and charges back then?
"while there were delays in processing, there was no outright ban."
Noooo, democrats don't ban people, they just delay the processing.
"while there were delays in processing, there was no outright ban."
Noooo, democrats don't ban people, they just delay the processing.
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TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
Dak
mentat
Frankly I haven't read much conservative theory/writing, unless you count old philosophy and classic/Austrian economics.
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
Agreed, if they had reason to justify their actions. All evidence points to there being little to no problem with our present vetting system.
I think it's outrageous to claim that it's justifiable to demonize a massive religion because of the actions of an extreme sect. I'm not really seeing away around that. I also don't see the benefit in alienating a large portion of the community that is most directly impact by Islamic terrorism, as they are obvious allies.
So what I'm hearing from you is that the Muslims immigrating to the USA are doing a better job of assimilating into the US than those in Europe are. I'm sure there are numerous factors for this, including class and education background. However, this certainly doesn't sound like a condemnation of our vetting system. Combining that with the scarcity of terrorist attacks by Muslim immigrants, what exactly is this ban accomplising other than spreading hate?
Please provide evidence that the general global Muslim community hates the west. That's a quite grand claim and reeks of Islamophobia.
By the way, I love how quickly the conversation flipped from actual far right terrorism back to demonizing Muslims.
Also, good news: https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/317884-washington-state-judge-halts-trump-immigration-ban-nationwide?amp?client=safari
Now let's see if the Trump admin. can respect the rule of law or if they're gonna go full dictator mode on us.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
If they were doing this, it would be simply a ban on all Muslims entering the country. You're purposely ignoring that this is not the case.
No what I'm saying is, so far America has only really been getting middle class Muslim immigrants, not low/in poverty Muslim immigrants like in Europe.
Safety while the vetting system is reevaluated and improved upon, from what I can tell.
Nobody is demonising Muslims, calm down you're being emotional and stupid. I'm also going to ignore anything you say with the word Islamophobia soon, just an fyi in case you reply to me and intend to keep using the bullshit term.
It's all in here:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx
I hope he follows the law, and honestly I support this decision against Trump's immigration ban.
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
That's what Trump made clear he wanted throughout his campaign, but that would be so blatantly unconstitutional, that there's no way they could start there. It's pointless to try and get around this on a technicality when the executor of the act made it so clear what his desire is.
There's also this (go to 2:54):
Yes, that's clearly a factor.
He clearly doesn't care about safety, as demonstrated by the fact that he's basically directing resources away from right wing and white nationalist extremists.
http://www.salon.com/2017/02/02/pre...l-islamic-extremism-abandon-other-terrorists/
He doesn't care about safety. He cares about making people scared shitless of Muslims, so he can be the big papa bear that defends them against the "bad guys." Meanwhile, he and his cabinet of millionaires and billionaires rob the country blind.
You can stop responding whenever you feel like obviously. I'm gonna call a duck a duck.
First of all, lazy research to just send me to a link with dozens of polls on a wide, wide range of topics from a wide, wide range of sources. How do you expect me to analyze or respond to that. Second of all, I don't see a single one that shows that the majority of Muslims "hate America".
I hope he follows the law, and honestly I support this decision against Trump's immigration ban.[/QUOTE]
