The Political & Philosophy Thread

[CiG]

Poaching the best and brightest from "shitholes" is just colonialism by other means.

 

[CiG]

"Hey want to debate? Here's thousands of dollars."

"OMG THIS IS JUST LIKE SEXUAL HARASSMENT."

The saviour of the Democratic Party in full force idiocy.

 

[Dazed and Brutal]

it's very simple

if they dont work
- they collect welfare

if they work,
- they steal jobs from americans
- they lower wages
- they likely still collect welfare because they have 5 kids
- they either pay little tax cuz of low salary
- or pay tax but get a huge refund once a year because they have 5 kids

I understand this much (though i don't know the validity of the welfare claim). I'm asking about a possible washing out of tax evaded by shifting the burden to businesses with a higher marginal tax rate.

edit: the welfare claim checks out

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Could anyone point to anything regarding tax fraud or the tax implications on businesses that hire undocumented workers?

edit: I've found approximate figures for taxes evaded by illegals. but that's an incomplete metric imo

Fraud or not doesn't matter. Most illegal laborers do not perform work valuable enough to be significantly taxed. Failure to report tips or cash wages isn't even on the radar.

 

[EternalMetal]

Something else not mentioned here is the difference in quality of work. I also have a relative who works as a "handyman", and he has story after story of giving a job quote, being undercut by a Hispanic (he doesn't have information on their immigration status obviously), who winds up fucking the whole thing up with shit work, and the homeowner and/or landlord winds up paying essentially double to get it done right. Recent immigrants from Central and South America A. Often don't have a solid grasp of English (understandable), and B. Don't know/give two shits about code and/or good workmanship, because it's not a thing that is valued where they come from. This leads to destroyed economic value which isn't captured by standard economic statistics.

This is harder to prove, but is true to a certain extent. Then again I know a number of "jack of all trade" type serviceman, and even among citizens their quality of work varies dramatically. Lots of these non-specialists will do stuff like construction, plumbing, electrical, etc type work without being properly certified to do so, and of course without acquiring the proper permits or following code standards.

My brother works as an architect at a mid-size firm, and even they sometimes get conned by contractors because their policy is to go with the lowest bidder (they usually appear more legit than a handyman, and usually get exposed by failed inspections and such).

Could anyone point to anything regarding tax fraud or the tax implications on businesses that hire undocumented workers?

edit: I've found approximate figures for taxes evaded by illegals. but that's an incomplete metric imo

I can help shed a little light on the issue based on my experience. I help my mother with her taxes and have dealt with tax collectors and the IRS in some aspect, and they largely operate on discretion. Basically the collector said that they know that a lot of small businesses have to hire illegals, and will ignore it on a small scale if business taxes are properly paid (just dont tell me kind of thing). He did say however that he does not shy away from slamming illegal businesses with fines, but they are usually more strict with the books of big businesses operated by people with business degrees who know how to skirt the law. Vague, but it tells me that most contractors and small businesses who operate using illegals are allowed to get away with it if they arent raking in too much cash (im sure that it is always a risk though). I don't know about any specific numbers though.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I find the tax implications of illegals confounding. If businesses are either reducing the salary expense they are declaring or simply not declaring those wages, wouldn't the government come out marginally ahead?

nvm, missed the context. Illegals can use an ITIN which serves as the equivalent to an SSN, and I believe that businesses are still required by law to collect all owed payroll taxes, no matter the citizenship status of the employee. Simply employing an illegal is not inherently illegal (afaik) so there incentive to not pay any taxes at all is low, when that's what will get your ass in prison.

 

[Dazed and Brutal]

So taxes are hardly an issue to even fuss over when discussing undocumented workers?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The issue isn't that they pay less taxes than poor citizens. The problem is that poor people in general consume far more than they produce, and importing them by the millions for cheaper produce and maids isn't a good long-term strategy.

 

[Einherjar86]

How many times do I have to point out immigrants aren't a homogeneous suite? Saying "immigration helps the economy" is acting like the legal immigrant cardiologist from India and the illegal construction worker from Guatemala are equivalent. No one is arguing that a highly skilled labor influx hurts the economy. No one. But the US isn't getting whitehat hackers, cardiologists, and oncologists from Yemen. Or jumping the border from Mexico. Etc.

First, they’re being treated as a “homogeneous suite” by virtually all conservative politicians and media pundits. The administration is already saying they want to target legal immigrants. It’s fairly clear that our lawmakers aren’t making a distinction.

Second, the point of info I linked was also that the argument holds generally across documented and undocumented. As for stories about how undocumented immigrants hurt small businesses that prefer to hire legal citizens—I don’t see that as an immigration problem, but as an aspect of capitalism. Hire the workers that save the most money. The arguments against this are entirely inconsistent: “We want free markets! Oh, but actually only for Americans.” Meanwhile, small businesses willing to hire undocumented immigrants are like “well fuck that, I wanna make money.”

See the discontinuity here?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

"If you don't accept anarcho-capitalism, you're being inconsistent in your support for free markets, goyim. Accept illegals you hypocrite."

 

[CiG]

"If you support free love but oppose non-consensual sex acts you're a hypocrite." - Ein2018

 

[Einherjar86]

Christ, you guys really don’t get it.

Americans want free markets, but only for themselves. That’s not a free market.

“Gubment, stay out my business! Oh, but don’t let me hire illegals. K thanx bye.”

 

[CiG]

I cringed IRL.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well so did I. Clearly we’re speaking different languages.

 

[CiG]

No I understand what you're saying, I'm just having trouble believing you're saying it. I've missed this place.

 

[Einherjar86]

I don’t think you do, otherwise you’d understand the contradiction I’m pointing out.

 

[rms]

See the discontinuity here?

isn't this a problem of nation state vs. economic system and not really that controversial?

 

[CiG]

You can support the concept of a free market while also supporting government regulation of borders, immigration and citizenship without contradicting yourself. Free market isn't synonymous with stateless anarchism or whatever kind of autistic meme you're trying to push right now.

 

[Einherjar86]

isn't this a problem of nation state vs. economic system and not really that controversial?

Actually yes, exactly. If by not controversial you mean that people accept this conflict, I would agree. I just happen to think it’s relevant here, is all.

You can support the concept of a free market while also supporting government regulation of borders, immigration and citizenship without contradicting yourself. Free market isn't synonymous with stateless anarchism or whatever kind of autistic meme you're trying to push right now.

The problem is that businesses don’t conform to national borders, nor do they necessarily owe anything to their countries of origin. Markets blow borders apart.

 

[rms]

You can support the concept of a free market while also supporting government regulation of borders, immigration and citizenship without contradicting yourself.

don't agree at all tbh