Thermionik Amp Modeler Plugin by Kazrog LLC

[He's Dead, Jim]

So you don't consider this answer a bold claim?
do you really think Thermionik rivals the Axe FX 2 or Kemper in sound quality?
"Absolutely. I wouldn't have bothered entering the amp modeling space if I felt I couldn't improve upon what's already out there."

When Kellogg's makes a new breakfast cereal, do they release commercials saying "You know, Fruit Explosion Circles are pretty good, but let's be honest, Cinnamon Toast crunch is fucking amazing and we'll never beat them at their own game. But whatever, just buy my cereal anyway." No. They release ads, saying their product is as good as or better than other cereal brands. It's called advertising. Onqel, Peavey, and whoever else do the exact same thing, to say nothing of Slate "Our Products Will Cure AIDS With Analog Vibes" Digital. And we all buy and enjoy their products regardless.

 

[Taurean]

When Kellogg's makes a new breakfast cereal, do they release commercials saying "You know, Fruit Explosion Circles are pretty good, but let's be honest, Cinnamon Toast crunch is fucking amazing and we'll never beat them at their own game. But whatever, just buy my cereal anyway." No. They release ads, saying their product is as good as or better than other cereal brands. It's called advertising. Onqel, Peavey, and whoever else do the exact same thing, to say nothing of Slate "Our Products Will Cure AIDS With Analog Vibes" Digital. And we all buy and enjoy their products regardless.

 

[Kazrog]

I've been at this for so long that I guess I don't see these claims as being very bold. I'm not Elon Musk promising to shuttle 1 million people to Mars over the next century. I'm just a guy who likes the sound of tube amps - a well understood, human invention.

Most amp modelers on the market are the result of a lot of compromises - the creators of these modelers are aware of these compromises, have perfectly valid business and/or technical reasons for them, and figure it's "good enough" to please the vast majority of the potential customer base. I've never liked compromises.

 

[the1984]

I've been at this for so long that I guess I don't see these claims as being very bold. I'm not Elon Musk promising to shuttle 1 million people to Mars over the next century. I'm just a guy who likes the sound of tube amps - a well understood, human invention.

Most amp modelers on the market are the result of a lot of compromises - the creators of these modelers are aware of these compromises, have perfectly valid business and/or technical reasons for them, and figure it's "good enough" to please the vast majority of the potential customer base. I've never liked compromises.

I think, as stated above multiple times; that you're perfectly in-line with everything you've said and even if you weren't, well, it is called marketing and it kind of goes with the territory to hype things to oblivion in this day and age where almost everything is moving at the speed of fucking light. Creeping up and then just zipping by at the speed of light for most of us to forget unless something about it speaks to us on multiple levels.

And to be clear, I don't think you've hyped it more than anyone else would who is genuinely passionate about what they're doing but I guess I can see how others who have never tried to bring their own creations to market strictly for others to use (especially anything related to the audio-world) and hopefully enjoy; no matter what it's always a labor of love (or at least it should be IMO, although I know it's not in some instances).

I too, loathe compromises, especially when it comes to software and your point is completely spot on and I respect you're understanding, or willingness to understand, some of the competition.

This is why I am an absolute Nebula freak. Is it kind of retardedly complicated and unintuitive to use in most situations? Sure, it kind of is.
Does it eat tons of CPU? Absolutely.
But fuck, it sounds absolutely amazing and affords me sonic tools / a different way of thinking and processing audio that absolutely no other piece of gear can do otherwise. Be it hardware of software.

/endrant. I can't wait to use Thermionik for myself! I am not completely sold based on the examples but that goes for most software before one gets a chance to try it for one's self. Where how it sounds, how the GUI feels, how it inspires or doesn't etc. is impossible to surmise by clips alone.

 

[guy in latvia]

Kazrog, all I can say is that you've made it! You have haters now, which is a sign that people care enough to talk shit about you.

 

[xphen0m]

Just bought the upgrade.

Really looking forward to this!

 

[NecroDM]

I'm interested in trying this, will you release a demo/trial version?

 

[dipje]

You said you used a solid state poweramp to take all the IR captures?
Can you explain then what it is (and why , and why you don't have something alike ) that for example Redwirez have the 'impedance curve' IRs added? In their words, hooking speakers up to a tube poweramp makes the speakers behave differently than when being hooked up to a solid state poweramp, even when both are (theoretically) pure flat in frequency response.

Isn't this speaker behaviour something you miss out on when capturing with solid state poweramps?
TPA-1 has the 'Resonance' control for this (but it's a 'general' control, while every speaker reacts differently from what I've read). Redwirez includes their 'impedance curves' IRs to add on top (or in front) the regular cabinet IRs, and are captured per speaker (but only for a few popular Celestion speakers.. and we all know a V30 isn't just a V30, there are mesa spec'd V30s, Marshall V30's, Chinese Celestion V30's, etc...).
Ownhammer captures his positions through a tube poweramp and a solid state amp and gives the choice (although he recently changed it up to another solid state amp and doesn't want to say which one, I'm guessing it's a solid state amp with a 'tube' emulation kind of thing in it ).

I'm not saying it's good or bad - don't get me wrong - since the resulting tones are all subjective anyway. People even tend to use the solid-state versions of Ownhammer's IRs more because they often mix easier, but using the tube-poweramp-captured ones and comparing them to the real deal easily spots that they are closer to a real mic'd cab. AxeFx players often use the tube-poweramp Ownhammer IRs again I believe... Once again, I have no clue what it all means exactly and what is the wrong or real way to look at this (except for liking or not liking the tones I end up with in my DAW ), but was wondering what you did on this subject in Recabinet (be it 3 or 4). Was something like this lacking in Recabinet 3? Do you simply think it's not needed / correct (which is OK), is something like this now in the REcabinet 4 power-section?

 

[MrBongo]

speakers´ data / behavior changes with heat, age and excursion.
the amp behaves differently, it reacts to the speakers´ impedance at any moment. tube amps have a different response to changing impedance than solid state amps
(kept very simply)

btw: bought the VIP, demanding amps now ^.^
oh, and what about an extra cab pack? some really unusual ones for freaks like me, who like to experiment

 

[newamerikangospel]

Thermionik stole my girlfriend, and then fixed Obamacare. I'm conflicted on how I should feel about it, now.

 

[Kazrog]

Wow, lots of posts since I was last here. As you guys might imagine, I've been a bit swamped with work preparing for the release. Here's some answers to questions (consolidated into one post):

• Yes, there will be a demo, although it may not come out for a few days after the full version is released to the pre-order customers.
• Because tube power amps are already simulated in Thermionik, there's no need to do any kind of special processing to the IRs themselves (which are linear anyway, so impedance curve matching is really an imperfect workaround.) The end-to-end simulation between power amp and cabinet in this plugin brings a much greater degree of realism than running a pre-processed signal into a simple IR loader.

And yes, I am eternally grateful that people care enough about what I'm doing to not only ask questions, but also do the occasional trolling.

 

[guy in latvia]

Friday can't get here soon enough...

 

[dipje]

It wasn't trolling . Other IR 'stuff' includes 'impedance curve' style IRs to use with the IRs. Really an open question (because I don't understand the whole thing): Why don't you? .

Ignite Amp's TPA-1 said that for IR's recorded through a solid-state amp the 'resonance' should be cranked (generally), and for IRs recorded through a tube-poweramp it should be at 0.

Of course we're not talking about the 'general' poweramp tone here (distortion,saturation, compression, presence/depth controls, etc..).

For instance, if I want to use Recabinet (be it 3 or 4) with an unfiltered line-out feed of my cheap tube-head, am I missing something? The (power)amp modeling is disabled then in Recabinet 4, as I'm using a real head. Is there then something missing because you captured with a solid-state amp?

Or is that 'interaction' still there because my poweramp is still connected to a real cab and playing through there? (And is this the reason why there are 'reactive attenuators' instead of simple power soaks to make the poweramp behave more like being connected to a real speaker?)

 

[Kazrog]

It wasn't trolling .

Wow, very sorry if I was unclear, but I wasn't referring to you with the "trolling" comment. Not in the slightest.

I'll get to your question in more detail ASAP. On my iPhone at the moment...

 

[Kazrog]

Other IR 'stuff' includes 'impedance curve' style IRs to use with the IRs. Really an open question (because I don't understand the whole thing): Why don't you? .

Because it's a workaround, and is not as accurate as modeling the whole system (as has been done in Recabinet 4.) As far as why nothing like that was done in Recabinet 3, it's really the same reason (I've been busy working on an accurate model of the whole system for a few years, in other words.) That said, as Recabinet supports any WAV format IR files, you're free to use any IRs you want with it.

Ignite Amp's TPA-1 said that for IR's recorded through a solid-state amp the 'resonance' should be cranked (generally), and for IRs recorded through a tube-poweramp it should be at 0.

I'm sure that these settings are probably specific to the topology of that particular modeler, and not intended as general advice. There's a lot more to amp/speaker interaction than EQ curves.

For instance, if I want to use Recabinet (be it 3 or 4) with an unfiltered line-out feed of my cheap tube-head, am I missing something? The (power)amp modeling is disabled then in Recabinet 4, as I'm using a real head. Is there then something missing because you captured with a solid-state amp?

You'll always be missing something in a disconnected system. Basically, the two most true-to-life approaches possible are:

1. The real thing (amp + cabinet, miked up.)
2. A complete amp + cabinet + mic modeling system that takes into account all of the interactions that happen in the physical world.

Short of that, there will always be some degree of compromise. That said, there are a variety of approaches that can sound great and be totally convincing.

Or is that 'interaction' still there because my poweramp is still connected to a real cab and playing through there? (And is this the reason why there are 'reactive attenuators' instead of simple power soaks to make the poweramp behave more like being connected to a real speaker?)

You're basically getting half the interaction at that point. When you plug an amp into a cabinet, they cease to be separate circuits, and behave as one larger circuit. If you record one part of that circuit, you're not getting the greater whole.

Finally, the speed of the typical CPU in a home studio is fast enough that amp modeling technology (if implemented accurately) can create a complete model of the system in realtime. Using IRs with real amps can sound fantastic, but it's a means to an end, where you're essentially using your vacuum tubes as outboard analog CPU power.

Honestly, though, I've failed some blind tests involving a miked up tube amp vs. the same amp through an IR of the same cabinet. So, while modeling the interaction between amp and speaker accurately was absolutely crucial in building Thermionik, it's by no means the only way to get a great sound direct.

 

[BearOnGuitar]

Sounds very interesting. Would you be able to write a detailed guide that explains or suggest how to best go about capturing cabinet impulses specific to Recabinet Kazrog? (which poweramps to use, suggested poweramp settings, IR lengths and how they affect the results, etc...) Maybe even create a simple program specifically for the creation of cabinet IRs? I would certainly be willing to pay for such a software if it's reasonably priced and also supports OS X.

 

[Kazrog]

Sounds very interesting. Would you be able to write a detailed guide that explains or suggest how to best go about capturing cabinet impulses specific to Recabinet Kazrog? (which poweramps to use, suggested poweramp settings, IR lengths and how they affect the results, etc...) Maybe even create a simple program specifically for the creation of cabinet IRs? I would certainly be willing to pay for such a software if it's reasonably priced and also supports OS X.

A bit off topic, but I've considered making an IR utility at some point. In the mean time, I can't recommend Voxengo Deconvolver enough - it really is the industry standard tool for this and there is nothing better. It also behaves well in OS X under WINE or a virtual machine. My main advice for IR capture is to use a 3 or 5 second swept sine. Be sure to capture 2 seconds or so of silence at the end as well, and use the MP transform and Normalize toggles in Voxengo Deconvolver. Experiment with different settings, capturing a bunch of IRs at a time, using descriptive filenames, and see what gets results you like the best. One thing I find that helps is to put up some gobos/baffles around the cabinet so you're not getting any unwanted room bleed.

 

[[Prime]]

If this turns out to be the pink magical unicorn it is portrayed to be... I am buying it!!!

 

[Mago]

I really don't get why people always get so upset about this.

If you think it sounds good, buy it and be happy to have another tool in the toolbox to choose from.

Ever since I bought the Kemper I didn't have a lot of use for amp modelers inside the DAW other than monitoring through them for editing, but if this is as good as you say it is then I'm gonna five it a shot.

I'm super sorry if this has been covered already, but I really didn't follow the direction in which recabinet went with IRs...since you said here somewhere that everything is modeled now, does that mean it doesn't work with IRs anymore? Cause for me they where always the weakest spot in the ampsim chain

 

[Kazrog]

I really don't get why people always get so upset about this.

If you think it sounds good, buy it and be happy to have another tool in the toolbox to choose from.

Right, and if you don't like it, just move on and use the stuff you like. I think this is the philosophy of more mature forum goers, but it doesn't stop sites like GearSlutz from turning into a constant bitchfest.

Ever since I bought the Kemper I didn't have a lot of use for amp modelers inside the DAW other than monitoring through them for editing, but if this is as good as you say it is then I'm gonna five it a shot.

Cool! I appreciate that a lot, I know how happy Kemper owners tend to be (it really is a great unit.)

I'm super sorry if this has been covered already, but I really didn't follow the direction in which recabinet went with IRs...since you said here somewhere that everything is modeled now, does that mean it doesn't work with IRs anymore? Cause for me they where always the weakest spot in the ampsim chain

Recabinet has always and will always work with IRs. When we talk about the "modeling" of speakers in amp simulators that don't use IRs, we're talking about another type of filter called an IIR filter (infinite impulse response) as opposed to the kind of impulse responses we use in convolution, which become an FIR filter (finite impulse response.) Both are linear filters capable of representing a frequency response, and both can be considered modeling (or part of a larger chain of modeling.)

Because FIRs are finite, they are fixed to the resolution the impulse response was captured at, but they contain a lot of detail (peaks and valleys in the spectrum). By contrast, IIRs can scale to any resolution and actually gain bandwidth as you go up to a higher resolution (unlike a WAV), but they lack sufficient detail to accurately represent complex peaks and valleys like you find with guitar speaker cabinets. In that sense, you can think of IIR vs. FIR as the audio filter equivalent of vector vs. bitmap graphics (respectively.) Deciding on the right tool for the job is the key. I would never use an IIR filter, for example, to represent a speaker cabinet, but I would also be highly unlikely to use an FIR filter for an EQ.

In the end, most complex effects processors use a variety of different DSP techniques, including both FIR and IIR filters, nonlinear operations, etc., often all at the same time (Recabinet is no exception in that regard.)

PS - if you're ever curious to deep dive into DSP theory, there's a great book that's free to read online: DSPGuide. Knowing even some of this stuff at the surface level can and will change the way you mix in your DAW (I know it did for me many years ago.)