Good choice! To bad our winters arent what they used to be
And if you want to check some shows : http://www.metalfan.nl/eventcal.php
And if you want to check some shows : http://www.metalfan.nl/eventcal.php
Viking mythology and all that goes with it
- Thread starter Celtik Militia
- Start date
Aurvandils tá
Skiede godt Egon!
Thanks 
But north sea winters are never really cold...
Baltic sea winters are MUCH colder hehehe
But the coldest winter I had was only -20°C cold. 100 years ago this temperature was just usual
But north sea winters are never really cold...
Baltic sea winters are MUCH colder hehehe
But the coldest winter I had was only -20°C cold. 100 years ago this temperature was just usual
Belgar
The Wallonian Redneck.
Aurvandils tá;6529484 said:Thanks
But north sea winters are never really cold...
Baltic sea winters are MUCH colder hehehe
But the coldest winter I had was only -20°C cold. 100 years ago this temperature was just usual
I can confirm, my brother and I slept in our car on Zingst's beach around Barth this summer. (after a drunk night at the Barther metal fest) I can tell you that at 6am the water was damn cold, but so clear. I miss it already. Then we went on to visit Rostock and had breakfast in Warnemunde. (which I find nicer than Rostock) before driving back to Berlin where my brother lives.
I'd like to get back to Tyras question about that quagmire in the smithy:
I recently saw a documentation about sword smithery. And the way I understood it, also the steel for the swords made in Europe consisted of several layers of steel. Similar two the way samurai-swords are made, but still a slightly different technique. And somewhere in the process you need clay (between the layers I think?).
So maybe that quagmire/puddle-thingy is basically his supply of clay?
It would mean though, that he didn't throw the legs away, but used them as well (to forge weapon-steel?)
I recently saw a documentation about sword smithery. And the way I understood it, also the steel for the swords made in Europe consisted of several layers of steel. Similar two the way samurai-swords are made, but still a slightly different technique. And somewhere in the process you need clay (between the layers I think?).
So maybe that quagmire/puddle-thingy is basically his supply of clay?
It would mean though, that he didn't throw the legs away, but used them as well (to forge weapon-steel?)
Tyra
Member
OK, but that would make sense in terms of religious practise (that he used the legs in the quagmire). Do you happen to know what company made the documentary? I'm wondering, since I'm working on a research project about this stuff right now, with the iron being re-deposited in various ways, from the Bronze Age and on. I was looking at Völund to see if there is a correlation. I've never heard of clay being added in the process, so I'd like to see if I can find some documentation. I'm working with a guy who is a inorganic chemist by trade, so between the two of us, we're looking at the various processes and how these correspond to religious practise. This could be very useful info for us.
Tyra
Member
OK, dude, ready for a T rant? I hadn't looked at this site for a few days (been out sailing a viking dragonship with friends again), so I never saw this until now. I've a few comments that might shed some light, but not really a 100% this-it-th-right-answer kind of answer:
This is one of those times when you have to take into account that whoever composes the poetry is paid by someone to do it and so has to brown nose a bit. As a good example, look at Egil, how he can raise a nidstang over Eirik Bloodaxe and his wife, and produce some absolutely venomous poetry to go with it, then end up in England where he spends a whole night producing poetry to flatter Eirik, in order to save his own neck!
In the Edda, Snorri gives a completely different account of how Odin ended up in Sweden, from the one he gives in Heimskringla. If you read between the lines, it is almost as if he couldn't make sense of the first version as it was retold to him, so when he wrote the same events down for a second time, he edited the first version. The Heimskringla account fits much better with the Christian faith than does the Eddic version, so it could be, that whoever paid Snorri wanted him to make it something that conformed a bit better. Also, Ynglingatal, just like the rest of Heimskringla, is a political response to a political situation. You must remember that in the end, Snorri was murdered by his political opponents. He was not just a learned Christian who wrote down a bunch of ON lore, he was also a politician from a very prominent family who lived in a time of political strife. The whole idea of Heimskringla is to prove the royal lineage of certain families who, at the time, were making claims to certain positions. There is much at stake here. By proving bloodties to Odin a family could reassure their continued political influence.
In Heimskringla, Frey is the same Frey that you see in the Edda. You've been give two different versions of the same event, but that's not all that uncommon with old texts. Ever read the Bible? In there, you're supposed to do onto toehrs, but you're also supposed to give an eye for an eye. Two respones of one action, and that's just one sentence from one book. Snorri's accounts are based on the lore as re-told to him by certain people. Not only does Snorri have a political agenda, but the person who first made the story up had one, too, and it could very well be that the person who told Snorri had one. Then Snorri, who was raised Christian, had to try to interpret what he heard, and his frame of reference was Christian, so some of the stuff he just plain old misinterpreted, unintentionally. Some he skewed intentionally to top it all off. These stories are also extrememly different depending on where you are located geographically. That's another symptom of different families in different areas claiming descent to different gods, or better yet, the same god, but since you have to prove that your particular family is more important than some other family also descended from that God, you give the same story a different slant. If you look at the death of Balder, for example, you get two completely different stories depending on where you are geographically. The Edda has him die as a result of Loki's actions, whereas Saxo has copied down a version where he dies as a result of a fight between him and another dude over Nana's affection. One is the northern account, one is the southern account.
In Heimskringla, it is Odin that is the first king, and the other gods follow as kings once he dies. Some of the written texts are different in their interpretetaion of events from the oral tradition, but this is one thing they have in common whichever way you turn it. Odin was first for the Svear. Frey is Freja's twin brother and Njord's son. Today there are quite a few studies of how the oral tradition depicts the gods, which gives us the other accounts, but also better (fuller) accounts, of gods and goddesses that come across as quite obscure in the written accounts. The oral tradition is often older, so it gives us a better picture of gods that were not as politically important once the idea of kingship entered into the culture. It is also here that you can read stories where Thor is not just a numbskull with a big Freudian hammer, but a god that protects the people and sides with them, and where Loki is also a revered god among many other revered gods. Unfortuantely for you, Seraphim, that resarch has been done in Scandinavia by Scandinavians, so it is not avaliable in English. Anyone that can read Swedish should check out Ebbe Schön from the library (or better yet, support the research by buying the books) and read some of it for yourself. It's good and fascinating reading that explains quite a few things from an era and a religion that might otherwise seem very ambiguous. The issue you've hit upon here is famlous for being just such an ambiguous passage, but keep in mind that there is only one account, Snorre's, that gives us this version. All the rest of them have Odin as the first God, Frey as the son of the leader of the Vanir (Njord), and he was exchanged as hostage after the war between the Aesir and the Vanir, and so became one of the gods that lived in Asgard.
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Ahh, yes, pattern welding. Generally, they used silver sand (powdered and washed quartz) as the flux for that, but many different things have been used/tried over the years. I'll admit I hadn't heard of clay being used for that, but it was sometimes used in casting metal.
One thing I just thought of, while double-checking on what was generally used for flux is this: Sometimes, and I'm not certain how often this would happen, smiths would simply dig a hole in the ground to use as a forge. And I'm very willing to bet that this would've been doused on a regular basis, as no one leaves a bed of hot coals unattended, especially when they live in a wooden building. My experience tells me that this wouldn't take long to become a rather nasty mess, and they would probably have to dig new pits fairly often, since after a few firings and dousings, the soil would likely become impermeable from vitrification and not drain. That would definitely fit the description of a "mucky puddle under the bellows".
One thing I just thought of, while double-checking on what was generally used for flux is this: Sometimes, and I'm not certain how often this would happen, smiths would simply dig a hole in the ground to use as a forge. And I'm very willing to bet that this would've been doused on a regular basis, as no one leaves a bed of hot coals unattended, especially when they live in a wooden building. My experience tells me that this wouldn't take long to become a rather nasty mess, and they would probably have to dig new pits fairly often, since after a few firings and dousings, the soil would likely become impermeable from vitrification and not drain. That would definitely fit the description of a "mucky puddle under the bellows".
Sorry, no clue. I only remember that I saw it on DMAX, and they usually broadcast reruns from Discovery Channel (the german one). It also was a german documentary.
Come to think of it, I hope I got the clay-thing right at all ... I just did some research, and it seems like it is only used in the end, when the steel is heat-treated ... (on japanese swords that is) ...
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Holy shit, has Schön written a lot of books! ...I really need to get my ass in gear with the Swedish learning, but it's kind of a winter type of project. I.e., once it's too cold out to smith, hunting season is over, and I can sit inside and read without feeling like I should be out doing something. 
Tyra
Member
Yeah, yeah, shut up and get your transcripts ready... 
You've got until the first week of October to join me for Viking Society. The dude that's teaching it is in Berkely (Cali), so we're doing all the chats etc in MY TIMEZONE for a change! Wh-hoo!! 
I've thought about the idea with the forge-hole-in-the-ground, too. I am not sure I can document it that late in prehistory, though. Technically speaking, I think that's more of a Bronze Age to Migration period thing, but I am not quite sure. I've been trying to look into it, but the research is a mess. Half of it is outdated, half is written by people who apparently do not understand the process of iron smithing. You can interpret the result till you're blue in the face, but if you don't understand the process and choose to disregard the oppininon of scientists that do, then you still end up with shit for a paper. You don't want to make reference to shit for paper, so...I just can't seem to prove that this was a practise that late. I am thinking that I'll have to resort to some practical experimenting, a.k.a experimental archaeology. I kind of need a Bates for that, but someone's not getting his transcripts in order so I can add him to the author's list when we publish the paper...
Yeah, Schön's a prolific writer, but not one of those things are crap. Wish I were that good at something. Actually, I wish I was as good at anything (other than making beautiful babies - that's not really a skill) as Brett Favre is at throwing a football or Don Beebe is (well, at least was) at catching it. (Yeah, yeah, shuddup up about my Packers, I know all about it, still won't convert to SataNiners or Saint Patriots). Oh, wait, I can recite the present of be in seven languages. OK, I guess I'll do.
You've got until the first week of October to join me for Viking Society. The dude that's teaching it is in Berkely (Cali), so we're doing all the chats etc in MY TIMEZONE for a change! Wh-hoo!! I've thought about the idea with the forge-hole-in-the-ground, too. I am not sure I can document it that late in prehistory, though. Technically speaking, I think that's more of a Bronze Age to Migration period thing, but I am not quite sure. I've been trying to look into it, but the research is a mess. Half of it is outdated, half is written by people who apparently do not understand the process of iron smithing. You can interpret the result till you're blue in the face, but if you don't understand the process and choose to disregard the oppininon of scientists that do, then you still end up with shit for a paper. You don't want to make reference to shit for paper, so...I just can't seem to prove that this was a practise that late. I am thinking that I'll have to resort to some practical experimenting, a.k.a experimental archaeology. I kind of need a Bates for that, but someone's not getting his transcripts in order so I can add him to the author's list when we publish the paper...
Yeah, Schön's a prolific writer, but not one of those things are crap. Wish I were that good at something. Actually, I wish I was as good at anything (other than making beautiful babies - that's not really a skill) as Brett Favre is at throwing a football or Don Beebe is (well, at least was) at catching it. (Yeah, yeah, shuddup up about my Packers, I know all about it, still won't convert to SataNiners or Saint Patriots). Oh, wait, I can recite the present of be in seven languages. OK, I guess I'll do.
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Yeah, yeah, shut up and get your transcripts ready...
I know, I know... fighting a bureaucracy 2000 miles away isn't working so well. Think I may just have to go out there and pull the "What Would Egil Do" card.What period are we thinking on this? I was under the impression that the Volundr/Weyland saga was early Migration at the latest, since the same general story also appears in Anglo-Saxon territories pre-Christianization. But I've not done any research into the matter at all, so...
Hey, I'd dispute that not being a skill! Alright, so making them might not be so much a skill, but all the stuff that comes after that qualifies, for sure.
Oh, and GO PATRIOTS! (I was born 20 miles from Foxboro
)
Tyra
Member
What period are we thinking on this? I was under the impression that the Volundr/Weyland saga was early Migration at the latest, since the same general story also appears in Anglo-Saxon territories pre-Christianization. But I've not done any research into the matter at all, so...
Hey, I'd dispute that not being a skill! Alright, so making them might not be so much a skill, but all the stuff that comes after that qualifies, for sure.
Oh, and GO PATRIOTS! (I was born 20 miles from Foxboro
I know how that bureaucracy thing works...try Vancouver to Sweden. Blä.
I'm thinking Viking Age. The legend itself is earlier, but the height of the culture in which it flourished is later, so it may be that the legend is altered to suit the time. Here's another one of those stories where what I was writing about above has happened. The German version of Völund is quite different from the Scandy one, which is different yet from the AS one. The main story line is the same but some of the very important details are very different, so I am choosing to keep it in the Scandy context. That version became chrystalized in the Viking Age, which is why I am looking at it in that era. Get it?
Another clarification I am thankful for
I wasn't particularly sure about the bias of Snorri, but it seems obvious now...the portion I read the original bit of info confused me because it was talking about texts I had no real knowledge of... I mean, Odin coming from Asia?
Thanks again though Tyra
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Tyra's
I had my middleage class last tuesday and we were starting to talk about the invasion of the roman empire by the barbarians. Then we talked about who were these so called barbarians. I was quite proud to name the northen ones, showing the teacher i wasnt agreeing with the term viking to name them, but as he says, to shorten it all.. (i will raise my hand again when the time will come to talk about long ships...... NO WAY im gonna let pass drakkar...) Anyway. The teacher mentioned the metal in which the swords of germanic barbarians were made of. He told us about the legend of Wieland, which i think is the Weyland you refer Bates?
whats the legend? the teacher told us about a very slow and long process... scraps of metal being ate by birds and from their excrements the metal being reforge again and again, giving at last a unique (in the sens of good) blade, very very sharp, etc. By that legend, the teacher was refering to the nitrogen added to streighten the blade (azote in french, not sure if nitrogen is the right term...).
What can you tell me about that?
Barbarian swords sucked, They were used as clubs most of the time.
AND A TRUE WARRIOR FIGHTS WITH A DOOR AND CLUB!!.......AND NAKED!
AND A TRUE WARRIOR FIGHTS WITH A DOOR AND CLUB!!.......AND NAKED!
Tyra
Member
Isn't that the description of a berserker - sword for crushing, door for a shield, but otherwise naked??
For the celtics yes. And the celtics used the swing attack allot.
For the germanics, no, most of the germanic tribes were REALLY poor and could not afford to buy armor or weapons(A sword in those days is the same as buying a car these days)
And the naked thing was a shock effect, although some of the people did not wat to ruin their clothes in battle.
Cool thing about the germanics is that most if not all there "troops" carried javalins.
The beserkers wore bearskins(The word beserker has something to do with bear) and most of the time had a two handed club. Maybe thats for the beter because most of the time those fuckers attacked everything in sight.
Gotta love em haha.
Bates
Swamp Yankee
@Erzebeth:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Wieland is Wayland is VölundR. The legend is mostly about him being a smith without equal, possibly of alfin descent, who was married to a valkyrja, who was captured by a king, hamstrung and enslaved, and then manages to take his revenge in various gruesome ways. The Völundarkiða in the Poetic Edda tells the story much better then I can. As for the bird thing, I don't think I've ever heard that one. Doesn't make much sense to me, either. Nitrogen is pretty inert, doesn't really combine with metal or add anything to it. But your translate of azote is right.
As for barbarian swords sucking, hehe, a lot of it depends on exactly who and where you are talking about. But the most common weapon for Germanic folk was the spear, as far as I know. Takes about the same amount of metal as a knife, but is far more useful in combat, generally.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Wieland is Wayland is VölundR. The legend is mostly about him being a smith without equal, possibly of alfin descent, who was married to a valkyrja, who was captured by a king, hamstrung and enslaved, and then manages to take his revenge in various gruesome ways. The Völundarkiða in the Poetic Edda tells the story much better then I can.
As for the bird thing, I don't think I've ever heard that one. Doesn't make much sense to me, either. Nitrogen is pretty inert, doesn't really combine with metal or add anything to it. But your translate of azote is right. As for barbarian swords sucking, hehe, a lot of it depends on exactly who and where you are talking about. But the most common weapon for Germanic folk was the spear, as far as I know. Takes about the same amount of metal as a knife, but is far more useful in combat, generally.
