Tyra
Member
This is my personal opinion only. Let's be clear on that.
If we establish a leadership beyond the kindred godhi and/or a dogma, we have created a whole new faith. Asatru by definition is a faith with many gods, with no leader other than that temporary leader of the kingroup at the moment of blót, and no dogma. So if X-brand of asatru has any of those in place, then they cannot really call themselves asatru, because those concepts go against the long established cultural traditions. If you are asatru, and you feel that you for personal needs want to be in a group where those concepts apply, then you should probably be looking towards theodism. Theodism by definition is all of those things - asatru deities but with dogma and politicoreligious ranking in place. Some Odinist groups also do this. That's what suits their practisioners, and it is not up to any of us to say they are wrong to worship that way - only to say "thank you for not using our name when you do it", since the concept of inequality before the Gods and Goddesses go against the fundamental ideas of asatru.
Besides, why would we need to have those things in place? We have religious rights and freedoms already here, and we do not have an onus on us to go forth and spread the word of our Gods and Goddesses, as a difference to the Judeo-Christian religions (where that concept is dogma). We have the right to bury, marry, name and so on. That's all we need to accomplish in the name of religion. If you want to get somewhere politically, do it in the name of something else, but NOT in the name of asatru.
In the past, efforts to create a hierarchy and some basic rules, a la 9 noble virtues, have served only to create strife within the community, fracturing us even farther than necessary. This tends to happen when an Odinsman tries to tell a Thorsman that his God is better...among other things. Again, that's becasue it is a concept foreign to the faith, and we have no established cultural norms for how such things are to be done without strife.
The stubborn part of me has always said that we need not try to conform to their rules, because, make no mistake about it, these are THEIR norms, and so the playingfleid is not even. That's almost like a little brother trying to keep up with the big brother - only we're not related, so it makes no sense. I AM NOT THEIR PEE-ON. I refuse to be, for the reasons I have outlined in 1000 Years of Oppression. But that's an intrisic presponse, one that is caused by the damage over time. I react towards conforming to Christian rules the same way I act if you hand me a viper. The experience of others as handed down to me tells me it will bite, and so I recoil. I do not want to conform to their rules for the same reasons. First of all, pagan religions were here first. Their religion is based on ours, and not the other way around, so really, make them fit into ours instead! They can't, though, because they have dogma that prohibits them from doing so, but that's not our fault, so why do we have to stoop to their level? Second, the Scandinavian counties do not have these issues. This is because they were nations founded on the basic ideas of the Old Tradition. In this part of the world, these ideas are new and foreign, much in the same way Christianity is new and foreign in other parts of the world. Many asatruar were Christians before they became asatru, and it takes generations to wash out cultural norms. It takes time for mainstream to wrap its head around new ideas - it took well over 2000 years for Scandinavia to wrap its head around Christianity, and it will take even longer in reverse, since there is now dogma involved in the new mainstream. Third, the whole idea for many, is that within asatru, you are free not to conform. You fit in with one or more of the deities, and you're good. This is not historically accurate, but it is today. This is what attracts people to asatru and wicca - the lack of need to be something you are not just to fit into Christian culture.
The typical Old Tradition way of doing things, in a historical sense, is to work quietly away and lead the way by example. It is not the way of the Old Tradition to be vocal, loud and confrontational in matters of religion. Again, this goes against the grain of asatru. But then again, North American asatru differs vastly from Scandinavian Asatru, so for opinions regarding that, you're better off asking someone born and raised here. Maybe you could PM Sleipnir for a better perspective on this than mine... He is a Thorsman, born and raised in the US, while I was born and raised in Sweden and live in Canada. Canadian asatru differs from US even. A good tip would be to go into northvergr.org and do a search for any articles by Bill Linzie. Read what he writes about the difference between the two types of asatru and you'll understand the predicament, because it really is what lies at the bottom of this whole discussion. All of these concepts you're bringing up are rooted in US asatru, and to us of non-US asatru, more often than not, they feel wrong. The discussion invariably goes off track and ends in one side calling the other names, and the other side retreating quietly and continuing to do things they way they've always been done. I am sure you can figure out which side is which. Many Scandinavian kindreds refuse to reply to some of the leaders of US groups, because they feel that what North Americans do in the name of asatru is damaging their name. Some have even asked that certain persons do not ever come to Scandinavia, and some have raised nidstangs.
I guess what I am saying is that you're right about it being etnocentric. If you want proof of that, then study the people who are attracted to McNallen, and study the ideas that he is putting forth. You'll find that the vast majority are aligned with a particular political stance that also flies in the face of asatru. Again, I do not want to go into this in a public forum. It is not my style to fling mud at someone who is not present to defend him/herself. You have to think about that, too, when you say that people don't care about McNallen's ideas. I care about his ideas like I care about Bush's ideas, only because they affect me and mine personally, and because they are hurting us. But I am Old Tradition, so I have ways to deal with things other than public infighting and pooh flinging. That's for monkeys and two-year-olds.
It is never good when one person makes us all look like idiots, becasue even if we try hard to erase a misconception, it takes eons to erase it out of the "other side's" culture, especially today, when you can put something on the net and it'll stay there forever. The whole Kennewick saga will be there for all to read for a very long time to come, for example, as will the nasty lies about one of my personal friends. The mouth with the richest owner wins (temporarily, at least), because if you've slandered someone who cannot afford a lawyer when you can, it doesn't matter if you've slandeded him, since he cannot afford to prove it in front of a judge. Besides, in the US, you have such a thing as freedom of speech. McNallen can say what he wants. So can Stephen Flowers, Diana Paxton and Susan Granquist. Each one of them reprsents a different take on the same subject. I choose to align myself with Susan, because I support her ideas. That is my way of making my voice heard in this matter. Hate begets hate, even if the one who hates is asatru, and I do not wish to further hate, so I will not besmudge someone's name. If we don't stop infighting, you know who wins? The Christians. And at that, it's not about religion, it's about politics. Let's be honest.
Unfortunately, McNallen has elected himself to be our spokesperson, and non-asatruar have believed him becasue they know no better (they don't make much of a point to know their enemy, because they don't have to if they don't feel threatened by us, if they do, they just choose a random statement they find fault with and run with it). None of my kindred, nor any of my family, have or will ever elect McNallen for the job. As a matter of fact, I do not wish to be associated with him or his at all. So for us, it is very unfortuante that he is our poster child, as we are then thought of as etnocentric and hierarchal and all the things associated with him that we are not. In the long run, though, generally speaking, the best way to treat such things is to let the person talk him/herself into a hole in the ground. Eventually they all curl up and pull a rock over themselves and die anyhow. The Tradition can withstand a few egos. I am sure if we can survive The Third Reich, we can handle McNallen and people who cause much, much less damage to our name than they do. In the end, this is a faith of solitary practisioners. It's between us and our gods and goddesses, not between us and McNallen. You cannot say how to- or how not to do this faith. You can try, but the Norns spin our web, not McNallen or Thorson or Paxton or even me. So, you don't have to stoop to anyones level, just the level you set for you, and that's exactly how loud we'll her your voice when push comes to a shove. And really, if you were to frame it in asatru, who cares about who wins in this world, as long as we win at Ragnarök...
If we establish a leadership beyond the kindred godhi and/or a dogma, we have created a whole new faith. Asatru by definition is a faith with many gods, with no leader other than that temporary leader of the kingroup at the moment of blót, and no dogma. So if X-brand of asatru has any of those in place, then they cannot really call themselves asatru, because those concepts go against the long established cultural traditions. If you are asatru, and you feel that you for personal needs want to be in a group where those concepts apply, then you should probably be looking towards theodism. Theodism by definition is all of those things - asatru deities but with dogma and politicoreligious ranking in place. Some Odinist groups also do this. That's what suits their practisioners, and it is not up to any of us to say they are wrong to worship that way - only to say "thank you for not using our name when you do it", since the concept of inequality before the Gods and Goddesses go against the fundamental ideas of asatru.
Besides, why would we need to have those things in place? We have religious rights and freedoms already here, and we do not have an onus on us to go forth and spread the word of our Gods and Goddesses, as a difference to the Judeo-Christian religions (where that concept is dogma). We have the right to bury, marry, name and so on. That's all we need to accomplish in the name of religion. If you want to get somewhere politically, do it in the name of something else, but NOT in the name of asatru.
In the past, efforts to create a hierarchy and some basic rules, a la 9 noble virtues, have served only to create strife within the community, fracturing us even farther than necessary. This tends to happen when an Odinsman tries to tell a Thorsman that his God is better...among other things. Again, that's becasue it is a concept foreign to the faith, and we have no established cultural norms for how such things are to be done without strife.
The stubborn part of me has always said that we need not try to conform to their rules, because, make no mistake about it, these are THEIR norms, and so the playingfleid is not even. That's almost like a little brother trying to keep up with the big brother - only we're not related, so it makes no sense. I AM NOT THEIR PEE-ON. I refuse to be, for the reasons I have outlined in 1000 Years of Oppression. But that's an intrisic presponse, one that is caused by the damage over time. I react towards conforming to Christian rules the same way I act if you hand me a viper. The experience of others as handed down to me tells me it will bite, and so I recoil. I do not want to conform to their rules for the same reasons. First of all, pagan religions were here first. Their religion is based on ours, and not the other way around, so really, make them fit into ours instead! They can't, though, because they have dogma that prohibits them from doing so, but that's not our fault, so why do we have to stoop to their level? Second, the Scandinavian counties do not have these issues. This is because they were nations founded on the basic ideas of the Old Tradition. In this part of the world, these ideas are new and foreign, much in the same way Christianity is new and foreign in other parts of the world. Many asatruar were Christians before they became asatru, and it takes generations to wash out cultural norms. It takes time for mainstream to wrap its head around new ideas - it took well over 2000 years for Scandinavia to wrap its head around Christianity, and it will take even longer in reverse, since there is now dogma involved in the new mainstream. Third, the whole idea for many, is that within asatru, you are free not to conform. You fit in with one or more of the deities, and you're good. This is not historically accurate, but it is today. This is what attracts people to asatru and wicca - the lack of need to be something you are not just to fit into Christian culture.
The typical Old Tradition way of doing things, in a historical sense, is to work quietly away and lead the way by example. It is not the way of the Old Tradition to be vocal, loud and confrontational in matters of religion. Again, this goes against the grain of asatru. But then again, North American asatru differs vastly from Scandinavian Asatru, so for opinions regarding that, you're better off asking someone born and raised here. Maybe you could PM Sleipnir for a better perspective on this than mine... He is a Thorsman, born and raised in the US, while I was born and raised in Sweden and live in Canada. Canadian asatru differs from US even. A good tip would be to go into northvergr.org and do a search for any articles by Bill Linzie. Read what he writes about the difference between the two types of asatru and you'll understand the predicament, because it really is what lies at the bottom of this whole discussion. All of these concepts you're bringing up are rooted in US asatru, and to us of non-US asatru, more often than not, they feel wrong. The discussion invariably goes off track and ends in one side calling the other names, and the other side retreating quietly and continuing to do things they way they've always been done. I am sure you can figure out which side is which. Many Scandinavian kindreds refuse to reply to some of the leaders of US groups, because they feel that what North Americans do in the name of asatru is damaging their name. Some have even asked that certain persons do not ever come to Scandinavia, and some have raised nidstangs.
I guess what I am saying is that you're right about it being etnocentric. If you want proof of that, then study the people who are attracted to McNallen, and study the ideas that he is putting forth. You'll find that the vast majority are aligned with a particular political stance that also flies in the face of asatru. Again, I do not want to go into this in a public forum. It is not my style to fling mud at someone who is not present to defend him/herself. You have to think about that, too, when you say that people don't care about McNallen's ideas. I care about his ideas like I care about Bush's ideas, only because they affect me and mine personally, and because they are hurting us. But I am Old Tradition, so I have ways to deal with things other than public infighting and pooh flinging. That's for monkeys and two-year-olds.
It is never good when one person makes us all look like idiots, becasue even if we try hard to erase a misconception, it takes eons to erase it out of the "other side's" culture, especially today, when you can put something on the net and it'll stay there forever. The whole Kennewick saga will be there for all to read for a very long time to come, for example, as will the nasty lies about one of my personal friends. The mouth with the richest owner wins (temporarily, at least), because if you've slandered someone who cannot afford a lawyer when you can, it doesn't matter if you've slandeded him, since he cannot afford to prove it in front of a judge. Besides, in the US, you have such a thing as freedom of speech. McNallen can say what he wants. So can Stephen Flowers, Diana Paxton and Susan Granquist. Each one of them reprsents a different take on the same subject. I choose to align myself with Susan, because I support her ideas. That is my way of making my voice heard in this matter. Hate begets hate, even if the one who hates is asatru, and I do not wish to further hate, so I will not besmudge someone's name. If we don't stop infighting, you know who wins? The Christians. And at that, it's not about religion, it's about politics. Let's be honest.
Unfortunately, McNallen has elected himself to be our spokesperson, and non-asatruar have believed him becasue they know no better (they don't make much of a point to know their enemy, because they don't have to if they don't feel threatened by us, if they do, they just choose a random statement they find fault with and run with it). None of my kindred, nor any of my family, have or will ever elect McNallen for the job. As a matter of fact, I do not wish to be associated with him or his at all. So for us, it is very unfortuante that he is our poster child, as we are then thought of as etnocentric and hierarchal and all the things associated with him that we are not. In the long run, though, generally speaking, the best way to treat such things is to let the person talk him/herself into a hole in the ground. Eventually they all curl up and pull a rock over themselves and die anyhow. The Tradition can withstand a few egos. I am sure if we can survive The Third Reich, we can handle McNallen and people who cause much, much less damage to our name than they do. In the end, this is a faith of solitary practisioners. It's between us and our gods and goddesses, not between us and McNallen. You cannot say how to- or how not to do this faith. You can try, but the Norns spin our web, not McNallen or Thorson or Paxton or even me. So, you don't have to stoop to anyones level, just the level you set for you, and that's exactly how loud we'll her your voice when push comes to a shove. And really, if you were to frame it in asatru, who cares about who wins in this world, as long as we win at Ragnarök...
but i dont know about the others 
I wonder who else can I contact that might know the answer to that question...
