Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[Tyra]

Well, I wouldn't say the religions "first took place" there, but at one point in time, neoliticum, I think, someone built massive pagan temples there, that can be linked to Stone Henge and Newgrange and other religious buildings all the way up to Sweden. Scroll back on this thread and there is more on that subject.

You are not the first Maltese to ask, so how come y'all seem to have such difficulties finding out about your prehistoric past?? I mean, they're fairly big temples that have been fully exacavated, and there really is no way of hiding them in the landscape, even if you wanted to, so how can you not know about them? I'm just curious, because it seems weird that other European people seem to be reasonably familiar with the famous Maltese temples, but the people that live on Malta are not. I mean, when I grew up, the Temples of Malta were a tourist destination, like flying to Rome or going to Venice... Is the government trying to hush the history, or is it the church or what? Just curious.

 

[Shealladh]

Yes, I agree entirely. The Scandinavian Iron Age is over 1000 years long. That "age" grew out of a Bronze Age tradition that also spanned centuries. You cannot have Vikings without Bronze Age, and the culture that leads up to the Viking Age is very similar in terms of religion and buildings etc. The difference is that in 793 the monestary at Lindisfarne was sacked, thus indicating the outward spread of an already well defined Scandinavian culture. Before then, they'd been doing exactly the same thing, just not in front of, and to, people who had writing (see, now we're back to EzR's question). So their culture was defined by the attacked, since the attacker did not leave a lasting written legacy that we today view as a lasting written legacy.
Before them, the same thing happened to the Celts. They ruled the whole continent single handedly for about a millennia before the Germanic tribes and the Romans pushed them onto the British Isles. The fact that there is but a smidgeon of them left alive today means little, when you consider the tremendous cultural legacy they left behind. Things would have looked very, very different today if there had not been a Celtic continent north of the Etruscans. The Etruscans became Romans, and the Romans wanted to take over the world. Only the Celts stood between them and the Germanic tribes, and goodness knows how things would have gone if it had been strictly between the Germanics and the Romans...

So yes, the legacy of the Vikings is what you have to keep in mind, and that is in itself just as big as the legacy of the Celts' or the Romans', who each had the better part of a millennia to change the world. Not very many cultures function in a vacuum, so you would not have had Romans without the Celts and Vikings without Romans. And no Vikings unless you had a Migration Era, and no Migration Era without a Bronze Age. The 300 years of Viking Age is only a pivotal point if you make it the centre of your thinking. To me, it's just an extension of another age.

Very well laid out, if I may say so. I just wonder from time to time. Do we live a time of awe of the previous peoples before us because we want the same inspiration, excitement or because we can?

Or do we shift our views and our way of "ruling the world", into recreating the past and trying to live upto those legacies.

I certainly miss the easier life of being apart of a community instead of this mish-mash of go work, pay bills, sleep, and then do it all over again, day in, day out.

We may have a more prosperious life, a more secure life, but then nothing was ever achieved by sitting around on our arses. So the sacking of Lindisfarne may have awoken the world to the viking "intrusion" (want of a better term), but then the spread of christianinty is still doing the very thing today. I'm sick of these people getting off on how to tell us to live and think.

Alot of the time, I just wish I could just go sack a church and end all those knocks on the door, or so called "do-gooder's" telling me I need salvation. Well, they need help if you ask me.

Maybe we need to tell them to listen to AA more, they might then start to understand how we all feel.

 

[Tyra]

I hear you. You know, I think it's almost like a rite of passage, a stage that all that are new to any (to them) new religion, to go through a stage where they are profoundly angry with the prevailing religion in the area that they live in. I see it all the time with North American Asatru, becasue over here, most are not second or third generation Asatruar. Although this serves a psychological purpose for that individual, it does nothing for the new faith to limp around and feel hard done by. Acting out in anger like an injured wolf merely serves to strengthen the resolve of "the other ones", and it feeds into their misconceptions about faiths other than their own. The idea is to not strike out before you think. You must act like a Norseman and bide your time, then hit them when it is effective and in an effective way. (Exacting revenge is not for wusses. Make it worth your while if you're going to do it. You will be held accountable in one way or another.)
Fortunately, these feelings of anger generally subside with mental growth and self knowledge (unless, of course, you get picked up by some group that feeds on them) and can then be turned into something deeper and profoundly positive - you know how they say that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger?

But I do hear you. I can totally understand what you are feeling, and I can honestly say that most of my people have had the same experience, and that I certainly have. Fortunately for "them", we have the ability to be the better person. We must always be better than them.
As an Asatruar and an archaeologist and just as a person, I also choose to honour my ancestors. I wouldn't be very honorable if I went around and distroyed churches, since these are also the churches of my ancestors. One need not love them, but at least respect them. If you turn it around, they didn't know any better, and they did not have a choice as to their religion (and all the other things that Judeo-Christians say about us), so we have to forgive them, even when we would rather exact our rightful vengeance. Ideas such as church burning only serve to feed the trolls that we know "they" are.
You would do much better to focus you energy on strengthening you and yours spiritually. Honour those who came before you, open up a "conversation" with them and you'll come to realize that no matter what faith, ultimately, they only want to strengthen you and yours. Without you, they no longer exist. You are their future, and so are your children. That makes your future kids, your predecessors and you just as holy as anything or anyone else, because you are the one who keeps them alive (both the kids and the ancestors). Then you have a community - yours. Your job is to keep the memory of the dead alive by teaching it to your children. Havamal verse 76: "Cattle die, and kinsmen die, And so one dies one's self; But a noble name will never die, If good renown one gets." Which brings us full circle, because you really have done right when you've focused on the family, just like you said in your post. That was, ultimately, what we were designed to do, and it is the aim of the pre-Christian religions. And playing AA is always a great idea.

Edit: Hopefully that also answers your question as to why we look to our past. Must it be one or the other? We can look back because we have the ability to today, but we always have, because the people that came before us depend on us remembering, and so do our kids. Even the Vikings had ideas about a glorious past. So did the Romans and the Greek, and most other people. The Anglo-Saxons made sure that drinking horns stayed in families for centuries, and the Celts used the skulls of their dead to remind them of their glorious past - at a very point in time that we now glorify as our own glorious past. This is not a new thing. It is, however, an extension of a religious practise that harks back to our hunter-gatherer stage. This is what the archaeological remains show us were some of the very first ideas of the first religions in the world. The honouring of our past.

 

[Bates]

And playing AA is always a great idea.

Works for me. What translation was that you quoted? I recognize the stanza, but the wording is a bit different. I like the "ring" of it, seems to get the point across a little better then the versions I have. Other then that, right on. I'm starting to get some of that through even my thick skull. As much as I hate feeling like Mr. Me Too!, you never give me much to disagree with. More controversy, I need something to argue about!

 

[Tyra]

Good question...I sort of just typed it...I think it's Bellows' from 1936.
You know, I can play the Devil...Loki's advocate with the best of them, if you really want to argue. Now we just have to think of a topic... No, wait, we can discuss anything Thorson. Then I'll get ornery all by myself. Or we can invite Runesinger to discuss Loki with us, but then we might get cursed... Or we could just...Naaaw, let's be nice.

 

[Shealladh]

I hear you. You know, I think it's almost like a rite of passage, a stage that all that are new to any (to them) new religion, to go through a stage where they are profoundly angry with the prevailing religion in the area that they live in. I see it all the time with North American Asatru, becasue over here, most are not second or third generation Asatruar. Although this serves a psychological purpose for that individual, it does nothing for the new faith to limp around and feel hard done by. Acting out in anger like an injured wolf merely serves to strengthen the resolve of "the other ones", and it feeds into their misconceptions about faiths other than their own. The idea is to not strike out before you think. You must act like a Norseman and bide your time, then hit them when it is effective and in an effective way. (Exacting revenge is not for wusses. Make it worth your while if you're going to do it. You will be held accountable in one way or another.)
Fortunately, these feelings of anger generally subside with mental growth and self knowledge (unless, of course, you get picked up by some group that feeds on them) and can then be turned into something deeper and profoundly positive - you know how they say that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger?

Yep, revenge can be sweet, but if you ask me it's all over way too soon. I use my anger in a positive way. So instead of blowing up and loosing it, I tend now, to think at why it makes me so angry.

I find that if I truely hate something in somebody, it's actually the bit of me that I hate, well most of the time anways.

But I do hear you. I can totally understand what you are feeling, and I can honestly say that most of my people have had the same experience, and that I certainly have. Fortunately for "them", we have the ability to be the better person. We must always be better than them.
As an Asatruar and an archaeologist and just as a person, I also choose to honour my ancestors. I wouldn't be very honorable if I went around and distroyed churches, since these are also the churches of my ancestors. One need not love them, but at least respect them. If you turn it around, they didn't know any better, and they did not have a choice as to their religion (and all the other things that Judeo-Christians say about us), so we have to forgive them, even when we would rather exact our rightful vengeance. Ideas such as church burning only serve to feed the trolls that we know "they" are.
You would do much better to focus you energy on strengthening you and yours spiritually. Honour those who came before you, open up a "conversation" with them and you'll come to realize that no matter what faith, ultimately, they only want to strengthen you and yours. Without you, they no longer exist. You are their future, and so are your children. That makes your future kids, your predecessors and you just as holy as anything or anyone else, because you are the one who keeps them alive (both the kids and the ancestors). Then you have a community - yours. Your job is to keep the memory of the dead alive by teaching it to your children. Havamal verse 76: "Cattle die, and kinsmen die, And so one dies one's self; But a noble name will never die, If good renown one gets." Which brings us full circle, because you really have done right when you've focused on the family, just like you said in your post. That was, ultimately, what we were designed to do, and it is the aim of the pre-Christian religions. And playing AA is always a great idea.

Well I was letting off a bir of steam, I do not care for the churches to be honest, they bring back too many bad memories due to both side of my family be so religious and all, they're all sheep and so hipocritical. Even though my nan (my father's mother) used to always say;

"I have my bible, I have god, and it is all all need. You don't need to have a church as long as you know god is with you." So in that I never seen the big deal of churches.

Yet on the flip side, nan used to always drum into me (yep, my nan raised me most of my young life), "Always strive to do the right thing, because the day you do not, is the day you'll get caught doing the wrong thing." This is pretty much my main moral, right is trying to understand the lesson in what is confronting you at any particular moment.

Edit: Hopefully that also answers your question as to why we look to our past. Must it be one or the other? We can look back because we have the ability to today, but we always have, because the people that came before us depend on us remembering, and so do our kids. Even the Vikings had ideas about a glorious past. So did the Romans and the Greek, and most other people. The Anglo-Saxons made sure that drinking horns stayed in families for centuries, and the Celts used the skulls of their dead to remind them of their glorious past - at a very point in time that we now glorify as our own glorious past. This is not a new thing. It is, however, an extension of a religious practise that harks back to our hunter-gatherer stage. This is what the archaeological remains show us were some of the very first ideas of the first religions in the world. The honouring of our past.

I think in a way, most of us humans do remember the past, yet it has a flow on effect, the grudges are always brought up too. It's a sad reality when I chat like this about it, yet it's also nice to know that every now and then, someone else's path you cross can sincerly respect your view even if it means bighting their tongue while you mourn your loss.

Can't resist using this as an ending;

When I am dead, Lay me in a mound.
Raise a stone for all to see
Runes carved to my memory

Skål to Tyra, RIP to my ancestors

 

[patrijota_malti]

Well, I wouldn't say the religions "first took place" there, but at one point in time, neoliticum, I think, someone built massive pagan temples there, that can be linked to Stone Henge and Newgrange and other religious buildings all the way up to Sweden. Scroll back on this thread and there is more on that subject.

You are not the first Maltese to ask, so how come y'all seem to have such difficulties finding out about your prehistoric past?? I mean, they're fairly big temples that have been fully exacavated, and there really is no way of hiding them in the landscape, even if you wanted to, so how can you not know about them? I'm just curious, because it seems weird that other European people seem to be reasonably familiar with the famous Maltese temples, but the people that live on Malta are not. I mean, when I grew up, the Temples of Malta were a tourist destination, like flying to Rome or going to Venice... Is the government trying to hush the history, or is it the church or what? Just curious.

I think that the only 2 reasons that lead to such ignorance in the Maltese Islands a.k.a. my homeland are 1) We're supposed to be Europeans but we've been governed by a government and authorities that led our Arabic character to show up i.e. ignorant and poorly cultured. Infact we rather obey E.U.'s regulations and so, or else 2) 1 fourth of our population is truely European the rest are Arabic cultured. The rest are the dominant ones which lead authorities and so!

To tell you the truth, the church has influenced so much but that is always the church's aim i.e. to keep people ignorant so as to abuse them in all the possible ways. I'm telling you this because for 16 whole years I've been learning in catholic school, where the only emphasis made on neolitic history was just expaining the buildings, giving no damn shit of importance towards Paganism.

 

[Tyra]

Hmm, that's kind of the impression I got. Just wanted to check. So what do you want to know? I will answer if I can.

 

[Runesinger]

Yeah i know, ive read Egil's saga, i remember the part where that girl is sick and under her pillow theres a bone or a piece of wood, i dont remember, with runes carved on it that Egil fix to save the girl's health..
Would the use of runes today by wiccans and such interfere with the public view of runes?

OK all this talk of runes has woken me out of my ice hockey stupor. This incident in Egil's saga is the classic case of a love charm gone wrong. A young girl named Helga had fallen ill. Egil found a piece of whalebone under her bedclothes. A landowner's son had tried to lay a love charm on her, and it had gone terribly wrong. Egil scraped off the bad runes, and burned the whalebone in a fire. He sang one of his famous rune songs as he did this:

"Runes none should grave ever
Who knows not to read them;
Of dark spell full many
The meaning may miss.
Ten spell-words writ wrongly
On whale-bone were graven:
Whence to leek-tending maiden,
Long sorrow and pain."

The moral of the story is: Love charms - just say no!

Yeah, don't get me started on Loki... or Thorsson for that matter....

 

[Shealladh]

OK all this talk of runes has woken me out of my ice hockey stupor. This incident in Egil's saga is the classic case of a love charm gone wrong. A young girl named Helga had fallen ill. Egil found a piece of whalebone under her bedclothes. A landowner's son had tried to lay a love charm on her, and it had gone terribly wrong. Egil scraped off the bad runes, and burned the whalebone in a fire. He sang one of his famous rune songs as he did this:

"Runes none should grave ever
Who knows not to read them;
Of dark spell full many
The meaning may miss.
Ten spell-words writ wrongly
On whale-bone were graven:
Whence to leek-tending maiden,
Long sorrow and pain."

The moral of the story is: Love charms - just say no!

Yeah, don't get me started on Loki... or Thorsson for that matter....

Thankx for the insight into another tale Runesinger. I reckon though, the moral of the story is never fall in love. Or you'll be scrapping off more than runes imho :Smug:

Loki, please tell. I even named my cat after him. Just so devious and the name fit him like a glove.

 

[Baraak]

Hello all!

Wow what a read! I have spent the last 3 days completely gaffing off my work and just reading every word of this thread. :zombie: I even followed along with most the links and read much of the Poetic Edda, which I’d never even heard of until 3 days ago. This has been quite possibly the most interesting read I have ever come across on the net.

I was born into a Christian home and consider myself a born again Christian (at least more so then anything else I have ever come across). However I’ve never been a blind follower, I’ve always had a million questions and still do. So many things just do not make sense to me or have never sat quite right.

Most of the ideas and concepts discussed in this thread make complete sense to me.

Tyra, you have said many times how lucky you are to have the kin you do, for as much as I worship Johan, I would say HE is the lucky one. You are truly a remarkable person. I Have never come across anyone so intelligent, strong, confidant, family oriented and yet still so respectful of others, and of others own beliefs / choices. Out of 1774 posts, you never once bad mouthed any others religious beliefs or put words in any others mouths or spoke for anyone you shouldn’t have. I admire that immensely and am sure that is what has drawn me to be so intrigued by your fascinating lifestyle (for lack of better word, don’t want to use “religion”)

Bates, I can see why you have been drawn here as well. I have agreed with every single point of view you’ve mentioned. I too have an unsaciable thirst for knowledge and wisdom (how ever I have not had the motivation to do nearly as much reading as you do…yet. Although I would love to.) I don’t know which belief system is right or which is wrong, “I just know it is what it is” (your quote ), and I will probably spend the rest of my life trying to obtain as much wisdom in figuring out what “it” is, while being the most honorable, respectful, person, husband and father I can be.

Perhaps, no one has it completely right and God (whom ever that may be) will know each individuals heart based off of the decisions we make and the lives we lead, and it will be just as likely for a Buddhist, Muslim, Asataru, Christian, Mormon etc etc etc, to have what ever reward or afterlife may be waiting on us, depending on whether you did right with what ever was presented to you in this life? Every person that’s ever lived has known when they are acting right, or acting in a way they should not. I don’t think anyone other then the individual can put guidelines on what is or is not right if that makes any sense?

Heh..little winded for a first post I guess, but it’s been a lot to take in over the last few days. I VERY strongly value the opinions of most of the posters in this thread and would welcome any sort of comments at all.

PS Rune, you do not live far from me at all, I have a freezer full of freshly picked black berries, we will have to get together and you can show me how to make some kick ass mead. I’ve tried it only a few times and absolutely loved it!

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

Welcome Baraak! I am amazed youve been able to to go through this thread in 3 days! i must say congratulations lol
I hope youll find some answers here maybe, if not, oh well

This thread should be published one day i say lol many persons cannot or have not the patience to read on a screen for hours in line.. i cant myself lol but in form of a book.... hehe

 

[Baraak]

Thanks ER!

I'm actually deployed with the military right now and I'm an aircraft mechanic so as long as the planes stay in good shape I have a lot of time on my hands. I'm usually here at work about 12-14 hours a day while deployed so I've had a good 36 hours or so to kill over the last 3 days, just taking a break every hour or so, let the eyes refocus a bit. So it wasn’t that bad LOL. Not to mention like I said, I was hooked, once I started I couldn’t stop, this was better then a good book!

BTW, being on a military base here, the internet access is very restricted, I have not been able to see any of your work I’m looking forward to checking it out when I get home. From the sounds of it, and the amount of research and detail you put into it, I bet it's awesome!

 

[Shealladh]

Thanks ER!

I'm actually deployed with the military right now and I'm an aircraft mechanic so as long as the planes stay in good shape I have a lot of time on my hands. I'm usually here at work about 12-14 hours a day while deployed so I've had a good 36 hours or so to kill over the last 3 days, just taking a smoke break every hour or so, let the eyes refocus a bit. So it wasn’t that bad LOL. Not to mention like I said, I was hooked, once I started I couldn’t stop, this was better then a good book!

BTW, being on a military base here, the internet access is very restricted, I have not been able to see any of your work I’m looking forward to checking it out when I get home. From the sounds of it, and the amount of research and detail you put into it, I bet it's awesome!

It's good to see another open person come onboard. So a warm welcome.

I know how it feels being "deployed" as my father was an engineer and my foster mum was a truck driver (both army). Finding things to do with time was always my first waking thought, so I used to go bush, draw, and generally read and think alot while out there.

The second best part of this thread is the recipe (yet to make) from Rune, Skål to wisdom...

 

[Bates]

Perhaps, no one has it completely right and God (whom ever that may be) will know each individuals heart based off of the decisions we make and the lives we lead, and it will be just as likely for a Buddhist, Muslim, Asataru, Christian, Mormon etc etc etc, to have what ever reward or afterlife may be waiting on us, depending on whether you did right with what ever was presented to you in this life? Every person that’s ever lived has known when they are acting right, or acting in a way they should not. I don’t think anyone other then the individual can put guidelines on what is or is not right if that makes any sense?

I see it something like that. How you live is far more important than the names you use for things. I find the old names and ideas best fit, at least from my point of view. Then again, we might all be nuts, and the only immortality we have is in the memories of our people. But if that's the case, I'm glad to have found folk with a similar brand of insanity. When you boil most belief systems down, they come to the same things... family, honor, and respect for the world we live in. But Loki lies in the details, as I would paraphrase.

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

I see it something like that. How you live is far more important than the names you use for things. I find the old names and ideas best fit, at least from my point of view. Then again, we might all be nuts, and the only immortality we have is in the memories of our people. But if that's the case, I'm glad to have found folk with a similar brand of insanity. When you boil most belief systems down, they come to the same things... family, honor, and respect for the world we live in. But Loki lies in the details, as I would paraphrase.

But then again, without Loke theres wouldnt be any sense to it all. Without chaos there wouldnt be order, etc...

 

[Baraak]

I feel just as strongly that there is a negative (Evil) being as I do that there is a higher one. Just like what Bates said, I just don’t know for sure what name to put on them.

I agree ER, there has to be a balance, or nothing would make sense.




Does one have to know the ON Gods in order to get to Valhalla? Or does anyone dying in battle go there regardless of personnel beliefs? Any ideas?

 

[Celtik Militia]

These last posts made me want to check out the begining of this thread, and i'm amazed by how little I knew about germanic mythology back than! I feel my questions were so stupid and ignorant!

Now its nice and clear in my head... Goes to show how a couple of years of (moderately) studying a subject and asking questions works!

Fuck; i decided to post here again because I wanted to say something but now I forgot what it was... i'll think about it. Thats annoying...

 

[Erzebeth.Rouge]

Personnaly, im not a follower of any faith (xtian, islam, buddism...) or a believer... A few years ago i was still considering myself some sort of atheist - that denomination freaked my mother out but i didnt care - with if not a belief, a hope that the afterlife isnt a blackhole of emptyness and uncounciousness. And with years i became more and more aware of my surroundings and nature. I dont believe in a Mother Nature, or a Gaia, or a specific entity ruling over something, but i do believe there is if not spirits, there is energies working... whatever they are and whatever the human named them.
Then i encountered Norse mythology via researches and later on via Amon Amarth, which was decisive. In all the religions ive overlooked, the one that makes more sense to me is the old norse one. I dont consider myself asatru, but i do have pagan tendencies and the asatru beliefs makes me want to know more. i find it very rich and intriguing partly because theres still so much to discover. And more importantly, i can be free within that belief to learn and learn more w/o having a church or organization trying to recruit me actively or deviously. Hel! im learning swedish in order to study there eventually and have a real history class about viking era! thing i cant have here.
But if ive write all this, it was to give you my opinion Baraak

Does one have to know the ON Gods in order to get to Valhalla? Or does anyone dying in battle go there regardless of personnel beliefs? Any ideas?

Since im not asatru, i cant tell what would be my belief on that. And i certainly cant speak for anyone. But personally, i think that the afterlife would be like you want it to be : xtians that have been good in life will want to be in heaven so they will imagine it, xtians that have remorse will believe they deserve hell so they will cast themselves in torment... if you believe theres a Valhalla or Bilskirnir or other god's hall - regarding which norse god youre the most attached to - youll want to believe youll go there in afterlife.
IMO it really is about what you think is true, a truth is ultimately personal and if some sort of organization is trying to sell its truth to people, you end up with xtians beating themselves up over things they havent done, said, think, or begin to think even... (theres many kind of violence and here i mean both physical and mental) and then denaturing the belief and its followers. (Thats showing a strong historical bias, sorry if i offened anyone, it wasnt the goal)
So i guess you need to know and believe on ON Gods in order to go to their hall. (Valhalla is the most known Hall, its Oden's Hall and you'll go there by dying in battle, yes. but its not the only hall, since Oden isn the only god, hes just the head of them all. If youre a follower of Thor, youd end up in Bilskirnir as i said. (hey i just thought about it, Tyra, Bates, Runesinger please? we determined Thor is the most praised god by the general population, farmers and so on. And since Bilskirnir is the biggest hall of them all, it fit doenst it? Thor being the most praised gather the most people in his biggest hall?) )

Ultimately, i think it depends on what you know or believe is true to you. the more you know the more 'choice' you have. I giggle thinking that (i.e.) if one is a xtians but knows about other beliefs and how they work etc, and when that one dies and found himself in, say Valhalla, he will be wondering where he is and think OMG MY FAITH WAS WRONG! IM NOT IN HEAVEN NOR HELL! i giggle thinking that subcounsciously that one knew his truth. but maybe im just too cynic...

 

[Baraak]

Thanks Erzebeth for your input. I never really considered that angle, an afterlife being what ever you make it. I like it. It's similar to what I've been thinking as far as everyone who deserves something good will receive something good.

One of the hardest things for me to understand with most religions has always been what about all the people who have never heard of "the right way"? For instance if the only way into heaven is through Jesus, what about the Trillions of souls that have lived and died and never even heard that name before? Not too mention the power of Nurture vs. Nature is very powerful, it is not uncommon at all for children to follow the same denomination as there parents did, just because that is how they were raised, and never even be aware of anything else. I guess I just don’t like the such absolutes I've been raised with, I think that is why I'm so intrigued with asatru and ON.