Virginia Tech Shootings

[Reaping Clarity]

I'm sure everybody would have heard about this now, in case you haven't: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

This just came as a great shock to me, 33 people were killed, this is the biggest school related shooting in America, even outdoing Columbine. What are your views on the event?

 

[Taliesin]

This just came as a great shock to me

Oh did it? I think it's funny how everyone acts all shocked and surprised, like "How could this have happened??" Well duh, you can buy pistols on every corner, rifles arent that much harder to get. There are almost 12000 people shot in the US every year, whereas only about 400 are shot in Germany and everyone acts like that's not such a huge difference.
Even after events like these, there's not even a real discussion about the gun laws going on. It's just ridiculous and until there isnt some kind of general outcry against the current legislation, I dont see why I should feel any compassion for anyone. Dont act like it comes as a surprise.. it certainly doesnt come as a surprise for the whole rest of the world.
This morning, there was an excerpt of some american channel on the news with a guy saying every student in the US should wear a gun. Apparently, in the US that makes more sense than a discussion about more restrictive gun laws.

 

[Reaping Clarity]

Well I live in Australia, so I don't witness the carnage that takes place every day in America, It came as a shock to me because of the mass amount of death along with the fact the guy did it because he thought his girlfriend was cheating on him.

I saw 'Bowling For Columbine' not too long ago so I see where you're coming from with the gun control subject. I honestly don't think they're going to do anything about it until a kid runs into the white house and shoots the president.

No suprise to me that this world is so fucked up.

 

[xenophobe]

It has nothing to do with gun control and everything to do with a sick individual.

Gun control just does not work. Laws that ban firearms only affect those who would abide by laws, and criminals do not fall under that category.

 

[Pessimism]

^ Got a point.

 

[stormy]

Its very sad R.I.P to all that were shot..

 

[IdolWarship]

It has nothing to do with gun control and everything to do with a sick individual.

Gun control just does not work. Laws that ban firearms only affect those who would abide by laws, and criminals do not fall under that category.

my thoughts exactly.

i was stunned when i heard about this. the hairs on the back of my neck were standing up, i was fucking scared for the kids i know who go there. so far as i know, from the people i was able to get ahold of, no one i know was killed or wounded, but goddamn, alot of people were. fucking insane. i'm sure the media coverage after a point was repetitive, but i don't have cable and the channels here gave me shit for coverage. i've talked with a couple peeps from back home in Va, and it's a grim scene indeed.

for all those who died, and their loved ones: and i don't mean kickass, i mean right now i'm drinking to them. their last moments had to of been terrifying.

 

[Taliesin]

Gun control just does not work. Laws that ban firearms only affect those who would abide by laws, and criminals do not fall under that category.

So you dont think making it harder to get your hands on a gun would decrease the number of shootings or gunshot victims? Ok, that wouldnt work for anyone who already has a gun. Still, I do see a connection between Europe, not many gunshot victims and not that many weapons and the US with many weapons and many gunshot victims. I hope you see the connection as well. If not, I'll have to refer you to one of Bill Hick's most hilarious jokes.

 

[IdolWarship]

bill hicks ruled.

 

[The Heartbreak Kid]

It was pretty badass.

 

[xenophobe]

So you dont think making it harder to get your hands on a gun would decrease the number of shootings or gunshot victims? Ok, that wouldnt work for anyone who already has a gun. Still, I do see a connection between Europe, not many gunshot victims and not that many weapons and the US with many weapons and many gunshot victims. I hope you see the connection as well. If not, I'll have to refer you to one of Bill Hick's most hilarious jokes.

So, ban all guns. Pass a law. How do you actually get rid of them? Do you support having the military and police go door to door and search everyone's house? (In America we have the Constitution and Bill of Rights, which protects our free speech, our right to own guns, and are protected from unreasonable searches and seizures as well as protection of privacy.) So the government should destroy itself to accomplish this?

So, if you're not advocating the government to destroy the Bill of Rights and the Constitution to ban all guns, and you're not advocating that America turn into a police state, what are you suggesting?

Waving a magic wand to remove guns from the earth?

Pass a few laws and hope that criminals will abide by them?

Are illicit drugs in your country widely available? Can you get pot, meth, heroin, Xtasy, or whatever? Are they illegal? That means they're banned. Of course, if you want it you can probably get it. Passing a law opens up the illegal black market and gives organized crime a reason to start smuggling guns. Criminals still get access to firearms. Law abiding citizens do not. Organized crime syndicates make more money and gain more power. Is that a good thing?

I would have to inform you, by their very nature, criminals do not obey the laws, generally law abiding citizens do. Rape, Murder, Theft are all already outlawed. You don't do it, I don't do it, and most of the people here won't either. Does that deter criminals from committing crime?

Do some genuine research on this. Australia passed strict gun bans. Their rates of crime, burglary, assaults, home invasions and firearms related crimes rose. Look at the UK, since banning handguns and severely limiting long guns, their firearms related crime has jumped exponentially. Look at Japan, where guns are banned. Crimes with firearms are on the rise, and they've even had to form their own rapid response teams to deal with firearms related crimes... yet handguns are banned in all of these countries.

You cannot legislate behavior. Rape, Murder, Child Molestation, Burglary, Assault... are they not illegal in your country? Those acts have been banned, yet they continue to occur. Perhaps passing more laws will stop it?

I know you guys hate the US as it is. Would you rather see America become a real police state, ruled by the military, or a dictatorship, or perhaps become a socialist union?

So, ban all guns (snap your fingers) and they're gone?

Anyways, prohibition doesn't work.

According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics [3], in 1985-2000, 78% of firearm deaths in Australia were suicides, yet only 5% of suicides involved firearms. The suicide rate has only fluctuated, not statistically changed, from 1993-2003.​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

The banning of firearms has done nothing in Australia. Suicide by firearm isn't a problem, but suicide still is.

Passing laws, banning guns, legislating behavior... it is not a deterrence to those that do not abide by laws or would commit crimes or acts of violence. Passing laws only affects those who would abide by them.


As for the Virginia Tech shootings, it's a very sad thing. Unfortunately, guns are banned from school grounds. It did not stop a psychopath who had no intent of following the law. It only kept teachers and students who might otherwise have been armed from ending the situation before the death toll grew.

School security was there. They didn't stop it. The police were even on the campus. They couldn't stop it. The FBI was even on campus, they couldn't stop it. The police are not always there to protect you, and your safety is your personal responsibility because the police or security cannot guarantee your safety.

To guarantee your safety, they would have to have police and military personnel in every hallway, every street corner, every shopping center, etc... That is not a free society.

You have laws in Germany banning bombs. Yet, you've had bombs kill people in nightclubs. You even have laws about killing people and strict ownership of guns, yet 11 Israelis were murdered in Munich, at the Olympics even. Laws don't stop those who are willing to ignore them. They only lock them up after the crime has been committed.

 

[Taliesin]

You act like laws dont change anything, because criminals generally dont respect the laws. Banning something usually means that it is harder to get your hands on it. The crime rate involving guns rose after that, probably because they had a problem with armed crime before and like you pointed out, guns dont disappear because laws arent a magic wand. Just because you cant make all the guns magically disappear doesnt mean you dont have to change your laws.
I dont want to change the US into anything, but does making it more difficult to buy a firearm really sound like such a bad idea?
You say you need a firearm to protect yourself. What did you shoot on, cans? Sheets of paper with a bad guy painted on the front? This guy killed 33 people, the FBI didnt stop him, security didnt stop him, but you and your P99 will? Come on, you dont even believe that yourself for a second.

 

[Pessimism]

America has a greater population than any single European nation, so if you want to compare America with Europe, you better count ALL of Europe, not the individual nations.

 

[Taliesin]

I think Im fine comparing the deaths by gunshot wound per citizen seperately. Germany has about a third of the US population and a 30th the gunshot victims, Im sure you can do the math. Besides, the rate is pretty high in Germany compared to the rest of Europe afaik, if you wanted to make some kind of "Clean up your own mess with gunshot victims" point, Im sure it'll backfire

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

xenophobe ftw!

 

[xenophobe]

You act like laws dont change anything, because criminals generally dont respect the laws. Banning something usually means that it is harder to get your hands on it. The crime rate involving guns rose after that, probably because they had a problem with armed crime before and like you pointed out, guns dont disappear because laws arent a magic wand. Just because you cant make all the guns magically disappear doesnt mean you dont have to change your laws.
I dont want to change the US into anything, but does making it more difficult to buy a firearm really sound like such a bad idea?

There are already 20,0000+ firearms laws in America. They are regulated at the Federal level, the State level and in many circumstances at the county and city level as well. They are probably the most regulated product in existence.

Making firearms harder to obtain will only make it harder for those who wish to legitimately purchase a firearm. A criminal can get a handgun from a gang or from an illegal source without having to wait, or pass a background check. More laws, or more restrictions at this point only affects those who would legally purchase a firearm.

You can't legislate behavior. A sick individual is a sick individual. An individual on a suicide mission can't be legislated away.

You say you need a firearm to protect yourself. What did you shoot on, cans? Sheets of paper with a bad guy painted on the front? This guy killed 33 people, the FBI didnt stop him, security didnt stop him, but you and your P99 will? Come on, you dont even believe that yourself for a second.

I trust any individual who is responsible enough to have received the required training, passed a FBI background check, and comply with all the laws to receive a concealed weapons permit than a criminal with a gun or a security guard with a gun. These are people you don't need to worry about.

Oh, and thank you for questioning my training with firearms without knowing about it. It's a bit ignorant and presumptive that you know I've owned firearms and have been shooting regularly for 20 years, and that I have been in the military as well.

I shoot more rounds downrange in one trip to the range than a police officer does in a year. So yes, I am qualified more than most officers, and so is any typical firearms enthusiast, and most people who have Concealed Weapons Permits must undergo similar firearms training to the local police as well.

Police firearms training is minimal. Most firearms enthusiast have more experience. Remember, most police officers rarely shoot their firearms, perhaps only twice a year to qualify. The majority of training a police officer does is to understand and follow the law, and the possession of a firearm is mostly an afterthought.

Proof that 'armed students' stopped a potential massacre at a school. Here is the CNN link, however you will notice that the mainstream media did not mention that the suspect was apprehended by two students with firearms:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/

Read the Wikipedia entry for it and you will see that it was two students with personal firearms who stopped the suspect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

 

[Taliesin]

Oh, and thank you for questioning my training with firearms without knowing about it. It's a bit ignorant and presumptive that you know I've owned firearms and have been shooting regularly for 20 years, and that I have been in the military as well.

My point wasnt to question your training, my point was that no matter how many times you've shot a paper Ben Laden in the head, I dont think you'll shoot a living target.
No matter how determined you are, you'll hesitate, so in the end the shooter looks down the barrel of your guns and vice versa. He just shot 32 people, you think he'll hesitate long enough for you to intimidate him? My money is on the shooter here.
Either way, you're happy with your guns, we're happy without. The main differences have been pointed out

 

[xenophobe]

My point wasnt to question your training, my point was that no matter how many times you've shot a paper Ben Laden in the head, I dont think you'll shoot a living target.
No matter how determined you are, you'll hesitate, so in the end the shooter looks down the barrel of your guns and vice versa. He just shot 32 people, you think he'll hesitate long enough for you to intimidate him? My money is on the shooter here.
Either way, you're happy with your guns, we're happy without. The main differences have been pointed out

I will defend my life against criminal action if necessary.

Shot a paper Bin Laden target in the head? Are you kidding me? Not only are you insulting but condescending...

Perhaps all that metal you've been listening to and all the heroin you're shooting up is clouding your substance abused judgment.

And I would agree with you. Germans shouldn't have guns. History has shown that as a society you can't be trusted.

 

[aqnimal]

So, ban all guns. Pass a law. How do you actually get rid of them? Do you support having the military and police go door to door and search everyone's house? (In America we have the Constitution and Bill of Rights, which protects our free speech, our right to own guns, and are protected from unreasonable searches and seizures as well as protection of privacy.) So the government should destroy itself to accomplish this?

So, if you're not advocating the government to destroy the Bill of Rights and the Constitution to ban all guns, and you're not advocating that America turn into a police state, what are you suggesting?

Waving a magic wand to remove guns from the earth?

Pass a few laws and hope that criminals will abide by them?

Are illicit drugs in your country widely available? Can you get pot, meth, heroin, Xtasy, or whatever? Are they illegal? That means they're banned. Of course, if you want it you can probably get it. Passing a law opens up the illegal black market and gives organized crime a reason to start smuggling guns. Criminals still get access to firearms. Law abiding citizens do not. Organized crime syndicates make more money and gain more power. Is that a good thing?

I would have to inform you, by their very nature, criminals do not obey the laws, generally law abiding citizens do. Rape, Murder, Theft are all already outlawed. You don't do it, I don't do it, and most of the people here won't either. Does that deter criminals from committing crime?

Do some genuine research on this. Australia passed strict gun bans. Their rates of crime, burglary, assaults, home invasions and firearms related crimes rose. Look at the UK, since banning handguns and severely limiting long guns, their firearms related crime has jumped exponentially. Look at Japan, where guns are banned. Crimes with firearms are on the rise, and they've even had to form their own rapid response teams to deal with firearms related crimes... yet handguns are banned in all of these countries.

You cannot legislate behavior. Rape, Murder, Child Molestation, Burglary, Assault... are they not illegal in your country? Those acts have been banned, yet they continue to occur. Perhaps passing more laws will stop it?

I know you guys hate the US as it is. Would you rather see America become a real police state, ruled by the military, or a dictatorship, or perhaps become a socialist union?

So, ban all guns (snap your fingers) and they're gone?

Anyways, prohibition doesn't work.

According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics [3], in 1985-2000, 78% of firearm deaths in Australia were suicides, yet only 5% of suicides involved firearms. The suicide rate has only fluctuated, not statistically changed, from 1993-2003.​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

The banning of firearms has done nothing in Australia. Suicide by firearm isn't a problem, but suicide still is.

Passing laws, banning guns, legislating behavior... it is not a deterrence to those that do not abide by laws or would commit crimes or acts of violence. Passing laws only affects those who would abide by them.


As for the Virginia Tech shootings, it's a very sad thing. Unfortunately, guns are banned from school grounds. It did not stop a psychopath who had no intent of following the law. It only kept teachers and students who might otherwise have been armed from ending the situation before the death toll grew.

School security was there. They didn't stop it. The police were even on the campus. They couldn't stop it. The FBI was even on campus, they couldn't stop it. The police are not always there to protect you, and your safety is your personal responsibility because the police or security cannot guarantee your safety.

To guarantee your safety, they would have to have police and military personnel in every hallway, every street corner, every shopping center, etc... That is not a free society.

You have laws in Germany banning bombs. Yet, you've had bombs kill people in nightclubs. You even have laws about killing people and strict ownership of guns, yet 11 Israelis were murdered in Munich, at the Olympics even. Laws don't stop those who are willing to ignore them. They only lock them up after the crime has been committed.

BRAVO!!!!

 

[aqnimal]

I'm surprised that nobody's yet blamed movies, TV, music lyrics, or video games.

Looks like the Phelps KKKlan is already getting in on it;

Our fallen Hokie Family members deserve to be laid to rest and have final respects paid to them with dignity. Fred Phelps and the WBC are planning to protest at ALL the funerals they can find. This is UNACCEPTABLE and we, the signed, express our desire for action to be taken against the WBC to prevent them from doing so.

The following is what has been posted on the WBC site http://www.godhatesamerica.com...:

WBC to Preach at Funerals of Virginia Tech Dead

WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).

Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today, and all they got for their effort was terror. Then, the LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.