When did female-fronted metal become "gotchic metal"?

[Palabra de Dios]

So, I think this has become a terrible trend. I used to think that gothic metal, while not a real subgenre, was more or less metal that had its roots in black or even doom that deviated from this, yet kept the gothic lyrical themes.

Case in point: Moonspell.

However, now the internet marketing machine has labeled the LARGE number of female fronted aggressive rock/metal, a la Delain, Epica, After Forever, and lesser bands with female singers as "gothic metal". I see this as annoying, and a terrible misnomer.

What say you?

 

[Jibrille]

They're both wrong. Goth rock originally started as a subgenre of post-punk in the 70s. It later got blended with various forms of metal.

 

[mitchgx]

They're both wrong. Goth rock originally started as a subgenre of post-punk in the 70s. It later got blended with various forms of metal.

Agreed. I've never considered the roots of goth-metal to be in the black/doom genre, but rather influenced by the likes of Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy.

In any case, I certainly wouldn't consider bands like Delain or Epica to be gothic metal....but labels always create an easy way out and start to lose their meaning as the definition widens.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I think this pretty much started once Evanescence came out. From the get-go they were considered a "gothic" band even though bands like them had been around before that time. Since then, people really use that term loosley. I would say bands like Bauhaus and the like influenced it, but I would say some doom influenced goth like Moonspell, Paradise Lost. Type O Negative also is what I consider to be goth as well as Manson. The only female-fronted bands I consider to be gothic are the beauty and the beast type.

 

[Dogs Playing Poker]

My personal feeling is that a lot of it comes down to musical lineage. I consider those bands to be largely the offspring of The Gathering, who arguably straddled the line between metal and Goth with Mandylion and Nighttime Birds. Lacuna Coil came along later, and early on they were compared to The Gathering, so suddenly bands with that general sound were labeled "Gothic metal."

With that being said, "Goth rock" doesn't have ownership of "Gothic" music in general, which to me is all about the atmosphere. I've always been pretty loose with the term "Gothic" when it comes to art and entertainment, so some female-fronted bands could be considered as such. Of course, most of them don't strike me as particularly dark. For example, I enjoyed Delain's set, but I can't see the "Gothic" tag being applicable in their case.

It's also been said that the term came from Paradise Lost's album "Gothic," which directly inspired the "beauty & the beast" bands. Eventually, those bands inspired bands with only the "beauty" part but the term stuck.

For my money, the best combination of metal and Goth atmosphere is Katatonia. They wear their influences on their sleeves, yet don't get tagged as "Goth metal" nearly as much as the latest female-fronted bands.

 

[J. Golden]

They're both wrong. Goth rock originally started as a subgenre of post-punk in the 70s. It later got blended with various forms of metal.

well that can certainly be debated. Black Sabbath gave Type O their darkness not Bauhaus. Not saying I don't understand where you are coming from but I think goth, death rock, new wave, new romantic or whatever had less to do with any metal evolution than what some people would like to think.

 

[Akumu]

Yeah, I never got this, either.

Case in point: A fluffy symphonic folk rock/band metal band with lyrical themes based around vikings, with a male vocalist, would probably be labeled either power metal or folk metal. But since the band in mind has Liv Kristine at the front, they're suddenly ~GOTHIC~. Granted, Theatre of Tragedy did have gothic leanings, but the only commonality they have with Leaves' Eyes is the presence of Liv and a male growler. They're probably the band that confuses me the most with the "gothic metal" moniker.

 

[J. Golden]

According to what the singer of Moonspell said to me at Jaxx Sisters of Mercy was not an influence and he had never heard of them. Now let's think about that for a second, the SINGER of Moonspell had not heard of Sisters of Mercy. Chrsit man you sound like you should sing for a Sisters of Mercy cover band.
Needless to say I did not believe him

 

[J-Man]

I think this pretty much started once Evanescence came out. From the get-go they were considered a "gothic" band even though bands like them had been around before that time. Since then, people really use that term loosley. I would say bands like Bauhaus and the like influenced it, but I would say some doom influenced goth like Moonspell, Paradise Lost. Type O Negative also is what I consider to be goth as well as Manson. The only female-fronted bands I consider to be gothic are the beauty and the beast type.

Not really, they were always considered just plain rock. Gothic metal or goth metal is a subgenre of heavy metal music. Gothic metal combines the aggression of heavy metal with the dark melancholy of gothic rock. The music of gothic metal is diverse with bands known to adopt the gothic approach to different styles of heavy metal music. Lyrics are generally melodramatic and mournful with inspiration from gothic fiction as well as personal experiences.

Pioneers of gothic metal include Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride and Anathema, all from the north of England. Other pioneers from the first half of the 1990s include Type O Negative from the United States, Tiamat from Sweden, and The Gathering from the Netherlands. Norwegian band Theatre of Tragedy developed the "beauty and the beast" aesthetic of combining aggressive male vocals with clean female vocals, a contrast that has since been adopted by many gothic metal groups. During the mid-1990s, Moonspell, Theatres des Vampires and Cradle of Filth brought the gothic approach to black metal. By the end of the decade, a symphonic metal variant of gothic metal had been developed by Tristania and Within Temptation.

In the 21st century, gothic metal has moved towards the mainstream in Europe, particularly in Finland where groups such as The 69 Eyes, Entwine, HIM, Lullacry, Poisonblack and Sentenced have released hit singles or chart-topping albums. In the US, however, only a few bands such as HIM,[1] Lacuna Coil,[2] Cradle of Filth,[3] Within Temptation,[4] Nightwish[4] and Evanescence[4] have found commercial success. Notable gothic metal bands from eastern Europe include Closterkeller, the most popular gothic act in Poland, which was founded in 1988.

 

[Magius]

Genres will always be a subject of debate, with some people using them in the loosest of generalities, while others are inclined to define them to the most finite degree. Nevertheless, if one uses them genres aught to be defined by the structure of the music and the delivery of lyrics rather than the gender of the singer.
Female fronted Metal is not necessarily Gothic Metal as far as I'm concerned. Nightwish and Delain for example aren't Gothic Metal. Nightwish is Power Metal, and Delain is Melodic Metal with a touch of Power Metal thrown in. Certainly no one would mistake Doro as a Gothic Metal artist.

Bands like Epica are hybrids of Gothic and Power Metal, so I'd call them Gothic Power Metal. No doubt some genre purists go rabid about that kind of thing, and will scream that "There is no such genre!" Don't care. It works for me.
Another hybrid is Battlelore, who I'd call Gothic Folk Metal. Again, I could care less if the purists don't like the terminology.

This is the way I define Gothic Metal, but by all means feel free to disagree:

Metal for the Adams Family. Gothic Metal is very atmospheric, very contrasted, and has a great sense of dark aesthetics. Gothic Metal relies heavily on bass guitar played in lower tones in combination with keyboards to set the mood of the song. To add further contrast dual vocalists are frequently employed: One female with soprano or operatic vocals, and the other male using Thrash, Death, or Black Metal styled vocals. This combination of singing styles is commonly referred to as "Beauty and the Beast" vocals. Some bands do elect to use a single vocalist, and the singers- be they male or female- tend to sing in eerie tones. Thus the combined effect gives Gothic Metal its characteristic haunting quality.

Much to the chagrin of old school Gothic fans the term is bandied about a bit loosely. Often the press will label any music being listened to by Goth or Vamp kids as Gothic Metal, based solely on the association with the listeners. In addition, the association with keyboards and female vocalists tends to lead some to label any music with these elements as Gothic. These notions are of course dismissed by Gothic Metal fans.

Gothic Metal has spawned an offspring of its own, albeit the most mellow of all forms of Metal. This lighter and somewhat sedate style of Metal has been dubbed Atmospheric or Ambience Metal. Though Ambience Metal will often be brushed off by some Metal fans, it is a style of Metal generally accepted within the Melodic, Progressive and Gothic Metal crowds. Ambience has abstracted something usually rather prominent in Metal: the edge. Unlike most genres Ambience Metal endeavors to provoke rather non-aggressive sensations. It's moody, smooth, casual listening; nevertheless, it technically meets the criteria of Metal due to its structure and use of at least mildly distorted guitars. Like the other sub-genres of Gothic Metal it has a similar haunting feel, but the feel is a bit airier.

Examples of Gothic Metal artists: After Forever, Tristania, Sirenia, Lacuna Coil, Moonspell, Poisonblack, To/Die/For, Virgin Black.

Examples of Ambience Metal artists: Within Temptation, Beto Vasquez Infinity, Edenbridge,

 

[Palabra de Dios]

To/Die/For and Virgin Black I'd agree with. Even Tristania. I'd put in Lake of Tears for the style as well.

But Epica, After Forever, Within Temptation, Lacuna Coil, Echoes of Eternity, and every other female fronted melodic metal band with "thoughtful/contemplative/dark" lyrics......not so much.

 

[Akumu]

Re: Epica: I'd argue that The Phantom Agony could fall under the umbrella fairly well, but not their other albums.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

I blame everything on Evanescence.

It's almost enough to make me stop wearing black! Almost. Not quite.

 

[General Zod]

I think this is a case of record label marketing people not being able to discern the difference between fashion and music. They see a band who has a hint of a Goth look about them, and they stamp them with a Goth label. And since that stamp seems to bridge a number of different sub-genres, and consequently, a number of different market segments, they apply the stamp quite freely.

 

[Jasonic]

Ok, just like the black metal discussions we have, people are quick to call bands that preceded goth metal, goth.

For example, while I agree that Type O got some of its darkness from Black Sabbath, I would not say that in ANY way Sabbath are goth, not musically or lyrically.

To me, true goth is Bauhaus. Later era-Damned was heavily goth, esp lyrically and how they dressed.

What hasn't been mentioned, which is surprising, is that the very goth-friendly Hot Topic chain and the Twilight saga have made vampires hip, so of course many labels will throw the goth tag on radio friendly female fronted metal. It's a potential easy sell.

As far as true goth metal, I highly recommend DRACONIAN from Sweden, who have been kicking my ass lately.

 

[Jasonic]

I think this is a case of record label marketing people not being able to discern the difference between fashion and music. They see a band who has a hint of a Goth look about them, and they stamp them with a Goth label. And since that stamp seems to bridge a number of different sub-genres, and consequently, a number of different market segments, they apply the stamp quite freely.

Yep, absolutely.
Exactly what I was referring to in my reference to Hot Topic and Twilight above.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Draconian are awesome. I do enjoy those guys.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

And speaking of female-fronted metal....

(shameless plug ahead!)

Flight of the Valkyries just announced this year's line-up! It's in less than 2 weeks! If you're anywhere near Baltimore, you should come!

http://www.flightofthevalkyries.com/

 

[J. Golden]

Ok, just like the black metal discussions we have, people are quick to call bands that preceded goth metal, goth.

For example, while I agree that Type O got some of its darkness from Black Sabbath, I would not say that in ANY way Sabbath are goth, not musically or lyrically.

To me, true goth is Bauhaus. Later era-Damned was heavily goth, esp lyrically and how they dressed.

What hasn't been mentioned, which is surprising, is that the very goth-friendly Hot Topic chain and the Twilight saga have made vampires hip, so of course many labels will throw the goth tag on radio friendly female fronted metal. It's a potential easy sell.

As far as true goth metal, I highly recommend DRACONIAN from Sweden, who have been kicking my ass lately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5CXvBp9B4

First Sabbath album has more of a gothic horror feel then most goth rock bands I can think of and I know early goth rock pretty well.
As for considering Bauhaus goth well yes but I believe the thread was about gothic metal and gothic metal and goth rock are entirely different.
Honestly if it were not for Victorian era and romantic literature there would have never been a re-defining of the term "goth" So if this never happened "gothic" metal could potentially have been something like TYR or Finntroll after all goths were barbarians before they started shopping at Hot Topic for all their vampire needs.

 

[ratanda]

In the late 90s I saw Nightwish described as gothic metal a few times. Most certainly simply because of the female lead singer and keyboards.

If those people that labelled it that way actually listened to the music for more than a few seconds they'd realize how superficial they were being with that description.