Why don't people like classical music?

[The Devil's Steed]

Most melo-death works off of a circular song structure so I had to ask how it was similar. And I don't think mainstream genres is the proper term, although I get what you mean.

 

[infoterror]

Most melo-death works off of a circular song structure so I had to ask how it was similar. And I don't think mainstream genres is the proper term, although I get what you mean.

Sure, although I consider classical music of a certain type the only viable underground.

Most "melo-death" is, musically speaking, heavy metal with death vocals. Putting death vocals on something does not make it death metal, any more than a white guy with a tan is hispanic.

 

[the alumnus]

Of all the mainstream genres, death metal, black metal, and some ambient musics (kraftwerk) most resemble classical.

The scales are similar (diatonic + others, not pentatonic) but also, the structure is similar. Metal is narrative, as is classical, and uses a motif-based format. Rock uses... repetition and fixed form.

1)you mention using diatonic scales as proof of metal's relationship with classical. does that mean the music which is pentatonic is not classical?

2)how do you define narrative?

3)how is metal motif based, rather than repitious and fixed like rock? after all, black sabbath is considered the progenitors of metal and their music was structurally grounded in rock, ie riff based.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Well.....you have to accept the fact that some people aren't really interested in music. They just want to listen to something for fun and get the immediate gratification of mainstream popular music. That coupled with the annoying stereotype that classical music is for old people, snobs, and is outdated, boring, etc. It becomes kind of a mentally "inaccessible" music genre, although it influenced everything they listen to.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Most death metal doesn't really use counterpoint or harmony.......I would see more connections with classical in something such as Pain Of Salvation's 'BE' than in death metal. There are jazz influences there also, though. Kind of a blending of aspects from the two.

 

[The Devil's Steed]

Sure, although I consider classical music of a certain type the only viable underground.

Most "melo-death" is, musically speaking, heavy metal with death vocals. Putting death vocals on something does not make it death metal, any more than a white guy with a tan is hispanic.

I'm aware of that. Hence, why I call it melo-death instead of "melodic death metal". Easier to say than "heavy metal with death vocals", isn't it?

 

[The Devil's Steed]

Most death metal doesn't really use counterpoint or harmony.......I would see more connections with classical in something such as Pain Of Salvation's 'BE' than in death metal. There are jazz influences there also, though. Kind of a blending of aspects from the two.

He was speaking of Gothenburg shit, so that doesn't count. Although, you're right, a majority of death metal doesn't employ that; some does, though.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Most death metal doesn't really use counterpoint or harmony...

Agreed. But a lot sure does. Death metal as a whole is more akin to jazz than actual classical anyway. But jazz has its own share of counterpoint and harmony, seen in a lot of death metal.

 

[infoterror]

Since jazz is really an artificial creation, or what happens when you meld together a bunch of different musics and play them with minimal rules, but is based upon classical musical theory, it's hard to say that death metal is more jazz than classical. And since in classical every technique of death metal existed years before the metal itself? ah, there's the rub

 

[Cythraul]

The scales are similar (diatonic + others, not pentatonic)

Going by your line of reasoning, Britney Spears is pretty damn similar to classical music, as is most pop music.

but also, the structure is similar. Metal is narrative, as is classical,

1) define narrative form
2) if your use of the term 'narrative' means what I think it does then you're absolutely wrong. Sonata form, rondo, etc. etc. are quite different from whatever the fuck it is you're probably referring to.

 

[infoterror]

Going by your line of reasoning, Britney Spears is pretty damn similar to classical music, as is most pop music.



1) define narrative form
2) if your use of the term 'narrative' means what I think it does then you're absolutely wrong. Sonata form, rondo, etc. etc. are quite different from whatever the fuck it is you're probably referring to.

Hmm. Someone who doesn't understand "scope" in argument - well, it'll all be over your head anyway.

Classical music, e.g. symphonies, are clearly narrative form; there are some exceptions within the classical tradition, but they don't define the rule, any more than Britney's periodic accidental diatonics define her as classical.

I mean, get real.

 

[Cythraul]

Classical music, e.g. symphonies, are clearly narrative form; there are some exceptions within the classical tradition, but they don't define the rule

I asked you to define 'narrative' and you haven't done that. If you care to even rise to that small challenge would you then please show me the specific points of contact between metal and classical in terms of form? You haven't done that either. You merely assume the connection.

any more than Britney's periodic accidental diatonics define her as classical.

Just what the fuck is a 'periodic accidental diatonic?' Fucking news flash: almost all western music employs the diatonic paradigm exclusively, be it pop, classical, or otherwise. So you brilliantly proceed to point out the obvious as if that somehow bolsters the alleged connection between metal and classical, like you do in the post below:

The scales are similar (diatonic + others, not pentatonic)

^ nice work

and then we have this brilliant piece of insight:

but also, the structure is similar

That's simply not true in most cases. Just because a genre as a whole eschews pop songwriting that doesn't mean the genre is utilizing classically based forms by default.

I mean, get real.

I think you should try that out for a change.

 

[infoterror]

I asked you to define 'narrative' and you haven't done that. If you care to even rise to that small challenge would you then please show me the specific points of contact between metal and classical in terms of form? You haven't done that either. You merely assume the connection.

Incorrect. You may notice a site full of information on this topic linked in my signature. Also, with adversarial debate partners, it is wise not to try larger concepts on them.

If you've missed the concept of narrative songwriting - not a private definition, by far - and you've missed the concept of using diatonic composition as opposed to pentatonic-based composition, then nothing is going to clue you in. You're simply inferior. Best of luck.

 

[Cythraul]

Incorrect. You may notice a site full of information on this topic linked in my signature.

Obtaining correct information from anus, hessian.org or any related sites is about as reliable as wiping one's ass with a cheese grater.

Also, with adversarial debate partners, it is wise not to try larger concepts on them.

There's a difference between wisdom and your inability/unwillingness to construct a cogent argument.

If you've missed the concept of narrative songwriting - not a private definition, by far - and you've missed the concept of using diatonic composition as opposed to pentatonic-based composition, then nothing is going to clue you in. You're simply inferior. Best of luck.

I haven't missed any concepts. You seem to think that, because I'm trying to get you to show me something that supports your generalizations and irrelevancies. You've proven nothing here; you've barely even attempted to refute me. Ergo, I have no good goddamn reason to accept anything you're saying as true. As for the difference between diatonic and pentatonic based composition, it's fucking irrelevant here. You need to understand that to describe a particular type of composition as diatonic-based is a very general description and includes a lot of things. Classical music is not classical music because it's 'diatonic' and allegedly employs 'narrative form' (a term devoid of significance in this discussion seeing as you haven't clarified the meaning of that vague neologism.)

 

[FauxPerspicacity]

I myself attempt at writing 'classical' music. I used to like metal but not really anymore. It's just not interesting. A lot of bands can come up with interesting melodies but they don't really do anything with them, and they all just seem to play something repeat it play something else repeat it and so on. Grant it this the wrong place to bash metal so hehe.

But a reason most people don't like classical music could be because they don't want to put the effort into 'dissecting' a piece of music. They just want to be entertained.

Classical concerts in my area (kansas) are casual though. People wear whatever they want, but the problem is, is that they almost solely play the 'old classics'. It's just a shame that excellent music isn't getting appreciated simply because many are afraid of something new.

 

[Nyrlathotep]

Length perhaps puts people off. When most pop songs last about three minutes it comes as no suprise that people can't listen to one thing for an hour. I personally prefer the more avant garde classical, stravinsky, Cage, Ives etc. All have a sense of asymmetry and chaos that makes for uneasy yet highly rewarding listening.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Incorrect. You may notice a site full of information on this topic linked in my signature.

You lose the argument. This is a discussion forum, not a "I can't be bothered so just look at the link in my signature" forum.

And Britney Spears doesn't have accidental diatonics, her music is written by people who I imagine know all their theory and use it to write pop songs that hit No. 1 every time.

 

[Hubster]

Hi all, I'm new to this sub-forum, but thought I would browse about as I wait to finish my shift at work for the night.

Admittedly, for the most part, I didn't like classical music much until I started to get more into Doomier bands and into darker forms of art.

In the last year, I've started to fall in love with classical, but more so Renaissance and earlier French Baroque styles.

It doesn't help that my girlfriend is a talented pianist and music teacher <grin> so she's had an effect on my musical expansions.

I've become a HUGE fan of the Viola Da Gamba - this instrument is nothing short of incredible. Similar to the cello, it's a predecessor to the "modern" violin family. The Viols have 6-7 strings (the 7th being introduced later in it's evolution), and have a warmer sound than that of modern cellos or violins.

This year I have been fortunate to attend three concerts of fantastic Baroque music, and finally got to see a Harpsichord live for the first time. <sigh> BREATHTAKING to say the least! Few things make me shudder like the flourishing of a Harpsichord, it is gothic in the most supreme of ways, the plucking of the strings is simply incredible.

Listening to classical types of music has actually deepened my appreciation for many forms of art, poetry and of course, metal. I also consider metal and classical to have many things which make them parallel in some ways.

One thing about classical though, is that it is FAR from boring:

Only a few days ago, I was listening to a very treasured Marin Marais CD I have, performed by Jordi Savall. I had one piece on repeat ALL afternoon, I probably listened to it about 30-40 times, over and over again. Each time I listened, I could hear something new in the piece. A new layer, something new in the strokes of the bow, I could go on forever. And that was just with the Viol, let alone Theorbe or Harpsichord.

The times I couldn't stand classical existed because I couldn't understand it: it was MODERN forms of this music (which apart from Henyrk Gorecki's work) that I (still) don't really like.

For those who feel this way now, go back a few hundred years and listen to the EARLIER stuff, you will be AMAZED.

Even though I love Metal more than any other music, I think that classical is THE most superior and technical form of music there is.

It is so incredibly complex and pure, words cannot really describe the beauty of a soprano hitting her highest peaks during a death scene of an Opera, or the violence that can be achieved through the hacking sweeps of bows on strings!

It moves you like no other music can, your mind travels further through it than anything else!

The best part is that there is SO much to discover about it. Techniques, history, characters, and so on... even the tales of the composers themselves is fascinating.

An amazing genre of music that I am delighted to be astounded by. It educates my knowledge of other genres.

Just my 2c

 

[LoboUivante]

i agree utterly with what the last poster has just said. I think that people without the proper recipient cannot understand, cannot discern the layers and layers imposed upon them through classical... it's the same with metal and jazz, at a lesser experience.

edit: soprano singing gets on my nerves

 

[The Devil's Steed]

Good post Hubster. I agree with everything except the comment about the soprano vocals, as I find soprano's hitting their high notes to be rather annoying. (It's simply too high pitched for my taste)