Yet another religion thread: what constitutes weird?

Well, to be honest with you, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. You talk about metacognition ..I don't think we're in the same page. I was just mentioning that I think I know what ian.de was talking about. I had recently read about studies and debates on consciousness, and what I said wouldn't really have been an argument from me. I just pointed out that some of the scientists debating this think that it (being aware of our consciousness) may be a reason why people have extensive imaginations. But eitherway, I don't know where the misunderstanding is, but nothing that I was referring to deviated toward getting that 'meta' prefix ..it was a scientific source, not jumping any gaps toward the purely philosophical or the paranormal.

And maybe I don't understand what you meant to say with this:..but if I were to take it as is, the only thing I'd have to say is that I strongly disagree: Cognition is what's responsible for all that a sentient living thing perceives and processes in its mind. All the sensory input, and all the mental contemplations and imagery, including abstract ideas like something with a "symbolic" interpretation. I can tell you that my brain is biologically equipped to process information of the world around me through my sensory input receptors, be it to duck when a bottle is thrown at me ..or to read and understand a phrase from Shakespeare that has a symbolic meaning.

And I guess in the end I didn't feel like debating any further this thing that you and ian.de have maintained. And part of the reason now, I suppose, would be in the fact that phrases like that above are used in these debates. If the defense is that something is too concrete, too real, too rational, and too materialistic and open to understanding or explanation, to be used against something ..then what's the point of trying to argue against that something and those who defend it?
I mean, that's all I have on my side ..reason and reality. I don't have anything else.
And it's like hyena said, we (non-believers) can just as easily just let it all be. Once something comes beyond what is known, and it comes to a point where the next step is personal opinion based on emotion and pure faith, then we are all free to make this choice.

I know what you mean. But what I was saying is that, at least in my opinion, cognitive-behavioral theories doesn't cover all of the human mind. They're based on conscious perception, reflective responses and logical thinking. But that's it, they don't go any further.

However, if you take the theories about the unconscious into account, the whole thing changes. The unconscious seems almost unsoundable, and at some point it might even look chaotic, precisely because it covers far more territory than mere thinking traits: it goes throught he emotional, the sensitive, the intuition, etc. A study of the unconscious must cover all of personality, where consciousness is just a small part of it. So when I was talking about the symbolic, I meant it on this sense: the symbol as a emotionally charged image, an autonomous and spontaneous Jungian "archetype", and not a mere intellectual allegory. The symbol would point towards the unknown, numinous and trascendental. It's not so much about what you think about a certain image, but what you feel about it, what it manages to stir inside of you.

This is part of reality. Concrete means objective, means external, but as long as it doesn't join its subjective and internal counterpart, the picture remains incomplete. The world isn't all about logic, there's a strongly irrational part to it. This has been proved even in physics and mathematics, but in no other place it is so evident as in the human mind. Religious revelation, as well as pretty much every artistic and creative inspiration, sprouts from this irrational part of the mind, which then must dialogue with the more logical and ordering consciousness so to establish a sense. If this didn't happen, if only the thinking part acted there, then we wouldn't have any classic artworks, because their spontaneity would be lost, and so their ability to be reinterpreted in different times and contexts. In this sense, art is deeply intertwined with the religious.

Too concrete doesn't mean too real, just too one-dimensional. The religious doesn't exclude logic from it, but compells to an integration between both reason and emotion so it can be truly functional. If religion gets too irrational, we only get fundamentalism and fanatism; if, by the contrary, it is supported by rational thinking, then we may get a more appropiate and true spiritual guidance. On the other side, if we get too rational, we can become blind to an enormously important part of ourselves.
 
History tell us many stories about how many gods became one god. Why didn't the idea of One God dawn on humanity from the beginning?

Mono theistic religions are a little over 2000 years old.
Multiple dieties or Gods existed for at least 4,000 years BC, way before the days of Moses.
Because people evolved and became smarter? ;)

I'm tired of this debate, i still owe a reply to Mags about evolution, but it's not like i can't tell him in private. Unless someone is really really interested to know what i think.
 
Religious revelation, as well as pretty much every artistic and creative inspiration, sprouts from this irrational part of the mind, which then must dialogue with the more logical and ordering consciousness so to establish a sense. If this didn't happen, if only the thinking part acted there, then we wouldn't have any classic artworks, because their spontaneity would be lost, and so their ability to be reinterpreted in different times and contexts. In this sense, art is deeply intertwined with the religious.

Is this speculation on your part or are there studies/articles on this? And how does the unconscious tie into god/spirituality again?

On the other side, if we get too rational, we can become blind to an enormously important part of ourselves.

In your opinion.
This is an ironic statement.

Siren said:
Unless someone is really really interested to know what i think.

I am!
 
Is this speculation on your part or are there studies/articles on this? And how does the unconscious tie into god/spirituality again?

Just go to your nearest library and pick a book by C.G. Jung. I suggest Man and His Symbols, for a starting point. Just a note: as far as empirical studies go, the unconscious doesn't tie into spirituality metaphysically, but phenomenologically. In any case, the religious seems to constitute an important part of personality.

In your opinion.
This is an ironic statement.

Inside ourselves there are billions of impulses stirring around and battling each other. In order to achieve mental health, we need to comprehend such impulses, irrational as they are, and not just discard them like they were garbage. Doing so would produce a neurotic conflict.
 
QRV:

Ah, I see what you're talking about.
When people argue towards a God conclusion there's always a 'jump' into faith at some point in the argument. Yours lies in your assumption that "the unconscious" is an entity that exists within us, separate from our normal cognitive functioning. You're saying that that our mental functioning is divided into A and B, A being physical scientifically-measurable and observable neural net workings, that according to you only account for so much of our mental experience; and B to which you are assigning supernatural qualities.
Of course, if that were the case, anyone would easily follow your argument towards a divine conclusion.

No one is obviously convincing anyone of anything in this thread, and the following isn't an argument from me. I'll simply point out how I differ from you and anyone who at some point makes the decision to embrace something on pure faith:

I maintain that our extremely extensive neural network accounts for absolutely everything in our (and any animal's) experience. From perception, to decision making, thought, memory, imagination, emotions, and output actions. I maintain that there is no other mysterious entity at work. There is much, much, to still be learned about this neural network and how it works, but unexplained is NOT unexplainable. If something is not yet explained, I don't rush to assign supernatural forces to easily answer my questions. Much has been steadily found out about in this field throughout the years; and much will be answered, little by little, well into the future (I'm subscribed to the "Nature, Neuroscience" journal, which I find very interesting).

The other thing is, I think you've been misled about what "unconscious" means. There are a lot of cognitive processes that occur quickly in your brain and without you being aware of them, and these are called unconscious processes. Whenever you practice something enough times (like tying your shoelaces), you can run this process 'on automatic' once you start, with all its steps being carried out unconsciously. When learning anything at first, you are conscious of everything you do, at each step of the way, which makes it effortful and difficult at the beginning. As you read these words, you aren't conscious of registering each letter and recognizing it, or even each word (as small children are), you just instantly know the meaning of the phrases as you read along. That's because you've practiced it so much that you have well-established biological networks that allow you to proceed without taking up much resources on your working memory, that you can instead use on higher order reading-comprehension, which is a conscious brain activity.

A long time ago, especially with influential people like Sigmund Freud, there was talk of "the unconscious" as if it were this place somewhere in the mind, and I think the wrong idea has been spread through the public about that whole thing. Regardless of the fact that many of Freud's ideas have been found to be plain nonsense in the present day, a lot of what he said has been taken out of context and misinterpreted by many. There is no actual, material, reality to this notion that there is a separate unconscious mind that goes beyond the physical and biological characteristics of our brain. I think you've been misled a bit about some of these aspects of psychology. And maybe you've read a lot of philosophy disguised as psychology.

But, as we're talking about something that has not been completely explained, anyone is free to make decisions as to what to make of it at the moment, as farfetched, imaginative, and unfounded as they may be. And, if not the decision itself, I do certainly respect this freedom.

[size=-2]And if anyone's thinking it, spare me any more ad hominem-style retorts ..implying indirectly something along the lines of "he thinks he knows more than me, he's arrogant, and he's an asshole, therefore he's bad/gay/wrong"[/size]
 
There is much, much, to still be learned about this neural network and how it works, but unexplained is NOT unexplainable. If something is not yet explained, I don't rush to assign supernatural forces to easily answer my questions.

I agree with the rest of your cogitations, in a broad sense. This part I'm having some trouble digesting, because it seems as if you are among those who rush to assign natural forces to easily answer your questions.
With this I mean that something being explainable (but so far unexplained) doesn't necessarily detract from its "mystery", as it were. Natural forces - especially those elusive enough to have escaped our scrutiny so far - can retain enough fascination to feed feelings of awe and mystique that I believe are closely related to faith in a supernatural entity. I imagine that the more evolved types of belief strongly rely on the spiritual as a link between natural harmony (or disharmony... let's say natural meaningfulness) and the deity of choice.
 
The emphasis was on my not rushing to assign an answer to my questions. If they aren't available, they aren't available. I don't have a problem having an incomplete account of things. Besides, I have patience
wink.gif


In this particular example, yes, I do hold that our biological brain accounts for our complete experience in the world as a living organism, because the alternative seems to me much more unlikely. But I leave it at that knowing there are vast blanks as to how exactly certain things work with this biological circuitry, which I'm happy to say I've seen progressively filled :)
 
oh my god (aptly so). you're not the only one who dabbled in the neurosciences, you know. i happen to have been involved in a neuroeconomics project this summer - you know, fMRI scanning aimed at understanding economic decisions - and if i have learnt something it is the following: brain scanning is going to tell you where and how things happen but never why. this bit of knowledge came directly from some of the most accredited PI's at the NIH and given that most of them spent 20+ years working on the subject i would tend to believe them. lesion studies, scans, you name it... these allow you to map which part of the brain does what and in which way, then you can look at historical data when there is any so as to reconstruct which parts of the brain evolved in which way through time and conjecture the reasons behind that evolution. but even if we knew exactly how, say, the limbic systems work (which we don't), we'd never end up knowing the reason why humans have a limbic system. you can say that the prefrontal cortex got bigger with time, you can say that the circuits connected to the concept of value and money are relatively new and therefore unstable, you can say a whole lot of things but neuroscience certainly does not give any answers, either here or there, on the question of why, say, we feel emotions that primates don't, beyond the fact that part A and part B of the brain are more developed in humans than primates. i fail to see how this leads to meaning-of-life extrapolations.
 
For the sake of the exchange that might follow between hyena and MagSec4, I would like to suggest keeping both meanings of why distinguishable. One is obviously the why as in the causes that lead to an effect, and the other is why as in the purpose of things happening.

I didn't really notice anybody misunderstanding the concepts yet, but I thought pointing it out straight away might save some time otherwise spent in awkward clarifications. Carry on. ;)
 
@rahv: ;) yes yes. is that 'efficient cause' vs 'motive' in english? or is there another expression?

of course what i wanted to say was "we know that circuit A in our brain produces reaction B" (and we know that in an approximate fashion, at that), including "we know that looking at religious imagery A produces positive emotion B", but that doesn't mean anything with respect to whether god exists or not. there is actually a nice study of comfort responses to religious imagery conducted by means of fMRI by someone at Oxford, but now the name escapes me. i'll look into it and update whoever is interested.
 
yo, Mag:

Actually, it's the other way around: I've been reading a lot of psychology disguised as philosophy. :p And no, I don't think of the unconscious as a "separate entity", but simply as the "unconscious", the unknown or hidden aspects of our personality. It doesn't quite work apart from cognitive processes: everything in our mind is closely related, and its natural dynamics aims for integration. Some parts can, however, split from our conscious mind because of neurotic complexes. I just emphasised the difference to distinguish it from our thinking traits, but in reality everything works as a whole, or at least tries to.

I'm particularly a Jungian on this. I believe there's this "collective unconscious" formed by archetypes which pretty much makes up the human race's mind configuration. Archetypes are collective and impersonal at their center, but they are shaped by our individual traits and particular external circumstances, and so they appear to us mixed like that. They are autonomous from our conscious mind, that is, we have no control over them. We can't tell an archetype to act or behave in certain way, but what we can do is listen to the archetype and understand its meaning in the different situations and moments it presents to us, be it in dreams, through creative acts, through whatever inspiration or revelation we may have. The archetype must be integrated with our conscious thinking in order to make conscious what previously was unconscious, so to expand our perspectives. Now, these archetypes are quite mysterious at their very essence, they are extremely dynamic and changing, because they are psychic energy, libido. Every psychologist who works with the unconscious, even if he doesn't agree with the collective unconscious, would tell you that we have only excavated the tip of the iceberg that is the unconscious. And speaking of neurology, remember we only use a small percentage of our brain capacity? That goes with the idea that only a small part of the unconscious is revealed to us through our lifetimes.

And I totally differ from what you say on Freud. There's a lot of empirical evidence of the existence of the unconscious, even if, as you said, there's no proven "material" cause for it. Hell, there are still a lot of psychoanalists around (even Freudian ones), with couch and all, there's still a lot of reasearch being done in hundreds of psychoanalitical institutions of all sorts, even if the current trends are the so-called cognitive-behavioral and empirically-validated forms of therapy. The unconscious is made valid through psychotherapeutic practice. So you know, psychoanalysis is far more -I should stress it out- FAR more than what Freud said, as thousands of revisions throughout almost a century have concluded, even if a lot of Freud's ideas are still rather valid. It is a very common mistake to trash on the figure of Freud to disqualify psychoanalysis, and it is very easy to ignore all posterior investigations. You talk of the theories of the unconscious as if they were things of the past, and that only shows prejudice and a tremendous lack of information. I haven't been misled on these aspects of psychology. On the contrary, I'm positively sure that at this point I've read more on the subject that you'll ever do in your entire life.

Another thing: I don't assign a "supernatural quality" to the unconscious. Empirically, scientifically, there's no supernatural quality to it. All studies have been mostly phenomenological, and this phenomenology describes the unconscious as a driving force behind religious thinking. Jung used to say that the unconscious is religious or mythical at its core, and from that point on we can only speculate. The are more complicated aspects of his theory (like synchronicity, for example, or certain aspects of dream interpretation) that barely suggest the existence of a consciousness apart from our biological brain-spinal system, but there's no way to prove that, same as there's no way to prove the opposite. All we have are a few indications.

But, certainly, nothing tells us that the unconscious cannot be a medium through which we may communicate with the spiritual. At all times and in every corner of the world, dreams and visions have been the natural ways through which humans are said to contact the divine. Why not? Ancient philosophers and mystics have always described man as a confluence of two spirits or forms of energy: the eternal or divine, and the mortal or material. Could it be that the unconscious is the bridge that binds together these two natures?

To see this point more clearly (I mean the unconscious, not the divine thing), I suggest you try an exercise to contact the unconscious. It's called "active imagination". Put yourself in a comfortable position, go sit on your favorite sofa, lie in bed a bit or something, whatever you prefer. Try to clear your mind and focus on an image from your fantasies. Just let it come to you. Once it is there, try speaking to it in your mind. You might want to ask questions like "who are you?", "is there anything you want to tell me?", but it's up to you, you formulate them. Just do it with an open mind, try to get rid of prejudices or else it won't work. It's a really nice exercise, and quite frankly, in a way it's very similar to what artists do when they create. Give it a try, you don't lose anything and it might help you more than you think to understand some aspects of yourself.
 
yo, Mag:

Actually, it's the other way around: I've been reading a lot of psychology disguised as philosophy. :p And no, I don't think of the unconscious as a "separate entity", but simply as the "unconscious", the unknown or hidden aspects of our personality. It doesn't quite work apart from cognitive processes: everything in our mind is closely related, and its natural dynamics aims for integration. Some parts can, however, split from our conscious mind because of neurotic complexes. I just emphasised the difference to distinguish it from our thinking traits, but in reality everything works as a whole, or at least tries to.

I'm particularly a Jungian on this. I believe there's this "collective unconscious" formed by archetypes which pretty much makes up the human race's mind configuration. Archetypes are collective and impersonal at their center, but they are shaped by our individual traits and particular external circumstances, and so they appear to us mixed like that. They are autonomous from our conscious mind, that is, we have no control over them. We can't tell an archetype to act or behave in certain way, but what we can do is listen to the archetype and understand its meaning in the different situations and moments it presents to us, be it in dreams, through creative acts, through whatever inspiration or revelation we may have. The archetype must be integrated with our conscious thinking in order to make conscious what previously was unconscious, so to expand our perspectives. Now, these archetypes are quite mysterious at their very essence, they are extremely dynamic and changing, because they are psychic energy, libido. Every psychologist who works with the unconscious, even if he doesn't agree with the collective unconscious, would tell you that we have only excavated the tip of the iceberg that is the unconscious. And speaking of neurology, remember we only use a small percentage of our brain capacity? That goes with the idea that only a small part of the unconscious is revealed to us through our lifetimes.

And I totally differ from what you say on Freud. There's a lot of empirical evidence of the existence of the unconscious, even if, as you said, there's no proven "material" cause for it. Hell, there are still a lot of psychoanalists around (even Freudian ones), with couch and all, there's still a lot of reasearch being done in hundreds of psychoanalitical institutions of all sorts, even if the current trends are the so-called cognitive-behavioral and empirically-validated forms of therapy. The unconscious is made valid through psychotherapeutic practice. So you know, psychoanalysis is far more -I should stress it out- FAR more than what Freud said, as thousands of revisions throughout almost a century have concluded, even if a lot of Freud's ideas are still rather valid. It is a very common mistake to trash on the figure of Freud to disqualify psychoanalysis, and it is very easy to ignore all posterior investigations. You talk of the theories of the unconscious as if they were things of the past, and that only shows prejudice and a tremendous lack of information. I haven't been misled on these aspects of psychology. On the contrary, I'm positively sure that at this point I've read more on the subject that you'll ever do in your entire life.

Another thing: I don't assign a "supernatural quality" to the unconscious. Empirically, scientifically, there's no supernatural quality to it. All studies have been mostly phenomenological, and this phenomenology describes the unconscious as a driving force behind religious thinking. Jung used to say that the unconscious is religious or mythical at its core, and from that point on we can only speculate. The are more complicated aspects of his theory (like synchronicity, for example, or certain aspects of dream interpretation) that barely suggest the existence of a consciousness apart from our biological brain-spinal system, but there's no way to prove that, same as there's no way to prove the opposite. All we have are a few indications.

But, certainly, nothing tells us that the unconscious cannot be a medium through which we may communicate with the spiritual. At all times and in every corner of the world, dreams and visions have been the natural ways through which humans are said to contact the divine. Why not? Ancient philosophers and mystics have always described man as a confluence of two spirits or forms of energy: the eternal or divine, and the mortal or material. Could it be that the unconscious is the bridge that binds together these two natures?

To see this point more clearly (I mean the unconscious, not the divine thing), I suggest you try an exercise to contact the unconscious. It's called "active imagination". Put yourself in a comfortable position, go sit on your favorite sofa, lie in bed a bit or something, whatever you prefer. Try to clear your mind and focus on an image from your fantasies. Just let it come to you. Once it is there, try speaking to it in your mind. You might want to ask questions like "who are you?", "is there anything you want to tell me?", but it's up to you, you formulate them. Just do it with an open mind, try to get rid of prejudices or else it won't work. It's a really nice exercise, and quite frankly, in a way it's very similar to what artists do when they create. Give it a try, you don't lose anything and it might help you more than you think to understand some aspects of yourself.

I'm interested in what you wrote QRV. I've always wanted to try some form of meditation to discover more about my self.

Have you read The autobiography of a Yogi? On another forum the religious discussion came down to psychology/cognition and this book was suggested to me. I wasn't able to find it at borders so I didn't want to buy it without checking out a few chapters first.

I agree that the human mind is extremely mysterious but I'm gonna have to put my money on nature and biology.
 
I'm interested in what you wrote QRV. I've always wanted to try some form of meditation to discover more about my self.

Have you read The autobiography of a Yogi? On another forum the religious discussion came down to psychology/cognition and this book was suggested to me. I wasn't able to find it at borders so I didn't want to buy it without checking out a few chapters first.

I agree that the human mind is extremely mysterious but I'm gonna have to put my money on nature and biology.

You mean the book by that Paramahansa Yogananda guy? It should be interesting becase the man lived in the US for like 30 years or something. I haven't read it because it's not translated into my language and not for sale in my country, so I'd have to order it from amazon, and shipping fees are a bit high lately. But I might buy it someday, it should make a fine read. Regarding meditation, Jung once read a book by some Buddhist yogi and said they both were pretty much talking about the same thing, just in different terms.

Well, if you're interested on this matters, I do recommend Man and His Symbols. I know money and time are quite limited (I too would like to read on subjects like astronomy and biology, but I hardly find space for that), but if you can find enough space and motivation, I assure you it would be totally worth it. It's written in very clear terms and was put out as a book for divulging, so it makes a really nice introduction.
 
Well I'll be God-damned (aptly so), hyena is getting feisty, QRV is getting all friendly, and ian.de has stopped trying to argue.
I think we're getting somewhere. ..I have no idea where, but we need to have ourselves a mid-thread whiskey.

[size=-2]Diet coke for spectators, and a fruit punch for QRV (because he doesn't drink)[/size]
 
Sheckles14 must be a slow reader. Or he just turned 6 and is lying about his age so he can get to drink.
 
Sheckles14 must be a slow reader. Or he just turned 6 and is lying about his age so he can get to drink.

You may laugh (indeed, you may), but I wonder what motivates people to post this kind of information. I'm not even saying this with contempt or scorn anymore, just perplexity. Yes, this thread is long and contains many verbose posts. We can't deny it.
 
You may laugh (indeed, you may), but I wonder what motivates people to post this kind of information. I'm not even saying this with contempt or scorn anymore, just perplexity. Yes, this thread is long and contains many verbose posts. We can't deny it.

I think its fun to post in threads like these to see what kind of ideas you can stir up. But it really doesn't end up going anywhere. If there are any on-the-fencers reading this thread I strongly suggest The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins to seal the deal

I'm still waiting for Sirens explaination of evolution.