your definition of a sellout

The difference (and I'm sure all the musos on this 'ere board will agree with me) is between developing your sound as an artist and just changing it for the sake of getting radio play. Rush changed their sound from album to album and not once did anyone accuse them of selling out. It's all about progression.

The early Rush albums were standard Zeppelin/Cream inspired stuff. They got tired of this quickly and moved into concept album/art rock territory, then got more radio friendly in the 80s with records like Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures.

The next big step came along on Signals, when Geddy Lee's keyboards started to take centre stage- a trend that continued through the 80s until Hold Your Fire. This led to a very different style of production and therefore a different sound (quite similar to The Police in some instances), but it's still trademark Rush because it's Geddy, Alex and Neil playing. They evolved because they wanted to. It wasn't just a trick to sell more records.

Spiff, 7th Son and any other Rush fans here, do you agree or am I talking out of my backside again?

W
 
I know flip all about Rush but I agree about the progression thing.

And come to think of it.... that is mostly what Kiss did. They never turned their back on their fans, and every album (with the exception of The Elder and Carnival) is still soaked in the trademark Kiss attitude and spirit.... they just progressed with the times really...

The Elder was an exception, but hardly a sellout because since when has a medieval themed concept album been the popular thing? It was also their worst selling album.

I think the only place Kiss really sold out was Dynasty/Unmasked. But most Kiss fans now still like those albums anyway so it doesn't really matter... I personally don't like Dynasty but half of Unmasked is very good I think.

I think an Angus Young quote applies here... "We're a rock n roll band, and we just find different ways to make rock n roll" or something along those lines.

That's what Kiss did really... whether it was the raw early 70s hard rock on the first few albums, or the thunderous 80s metal sound on Creatures, or the flashy LA glam with lots of big lead guitar stuff on Lick It up to Asylum, or the poppier sounding party hard rock on Crazy Nights.... its all just rock n roll with Kiss written all over it :D
 
I'm not a big Rush fan, but that's what I'm talking about. I'll use Miles Davis as my example though. He went through a number of different phases, such as his "bop" phase and his "cool" phase, and that's because he wanted to extend his musical boundaries, just like John Coltrane did.

But now I'm thinking about it, these two (as well as many others) didn't change to something existing. When they changed styles, they changed the nature of music. They changed to something that didn't exist previously. (This may be true of Rush as well?). Maybe the argument doesn't hold up as well in these cases.
 
I love Maiden's music 80-88. 90-98 is fair. BNW is a very good album, but not classic in my mind, although most of that is probably because of sentimental reasons.

It disgust me to say it but Maiden have sold out, in the sense of re-releasing their back catalogue for the third time. How many more "exclsuive tracks" can their be? I remember a time when Maiden kept Smallwood barred from the studio while they recording Piece Of Mind. Now it seems that EMI & Sanctuary are quite happy to keep re-flogging Maiden stuff to the fans simply because they know they'll buy it, and i'm quite sure the lads in Maiden aren't complaining. When money is more important than the music, that's what selling out is to me.
 
*blush* Someone blabbed about the sax?! :mad: :lol: HAHAHA!

Nah, like you said, Trent, if I was gonna do anything totally off the track from what Dungeon is about, I'd do a solo album (in fact, I'm nearly finished one now - ironically, it's quite similar to Dungeon in a lot of ways).

I've made no secret of the fact that I'm into a lot of 80s pop stuff and I'd absolutely love to go record a Duran Duran / Pseudo Echo tribute album or something (once again, not for Dungeon) so if I came out with that, while a lot of people would think I'm insane, they'd know it's stuff I genuinely like. It's not selling out, it's what I'm into.

However, if I went out suddenly and announced that I'm now cutting my hair, wearing big baggy pants, and getting a DJ in for my new project (especially since it's so popular now), I'd expect a lot of flack. That's not saying I'd never collaborate with someone doing that kind of stuff - a project is a project and it's fun to work with people even if you're not into the music - but I would never say that this new style is where I'm at now and what I want to do from now on.

Have a look here for a great example of what I'm talking about: http://skinners.musicpage.com/ (Shit, I hope that site's still there! HAHA!)

This was a totally off-the-wall project I did a while ago with a good friend of mine and thoroughly enjoyed it. Would I ever do anything like this with Dungeon? Hell no!

I think bands really do have at least *some* responsibility to their fans to at least keep true to their intentions. Like with Dungeon, we're a metal band and people accept us for being just that. Does A Rise To Power sound different to the Changing Moods EP from 1994? Shit yeah!! Is it still basically in the same vein? For sure - and you can hear similarities in the new stuff with rough early demos I made in 1989.

If Dungeon decided to become a pop band or something, I'd be suggesting a name change myself. Why confuse people? If everyone knows that you're a metal band, you're not gonna attract new fans that aren't into metal because most pop fans don't like it (or are brainwashed into thinking they wouldn't like it) and metalheads would eat you alive for doing that!

Of course, if the band set out to purposely be progressive and open to radical changes (Rush, for example), then it's all good and fine too - you're not dissing your long-term fans by changing anything, they expect it and probably even encourage it.

All that stuff aside, I think at the end of the day, change is OK provided it's genuine and not money/label/fame oriented entirely.

I really can't add to what Trent said before, so I'll stop now! :)
 
They rock! :headbang:

Really, if it wasn't for Simon Le Bon, I wouldn't be a singer now and it wasn't for Brian Canham, I wouldn't be a guitarist...

I owe those guys a lot (and they owe me 12 years of being a broke musician back! HAHAHAHA)
 
Originally posted by The Trooper
Okay, to me selling out is changing your musical style to follow a trend. Basically, its when a band tries more to please the masses than to please their own fans.

That is why Load is a sellout for instance. Who was the target audience of that album? The alternative rock fans of 1996, or the Metallica fans who had stuck by the band all those years?

Whether or not the band also wanted to experiment more, they sold out because the musical change was to something more popular at the time and it was a complete turn against what the fans wanted. The music, production, image, hairstyles, album cover, new logo, album title... everything about it beared no resemblance to the Metallica that the fans had grown to love.

The black album, however, I think was an example of progression rather than selling out. Each album they did from the start was slightly more melodic and had less S.F. thrash attitude than its previous album, and the Black album just happened to be the one where they hit the big time because the more melodic side to their music incorporated into that album appealed to the Skid Row/Guns N Roses fans at the time, while still pleasing most of their thrash fans.

ALSO... I think a sellout album isn't necessarily a bad album.

Here is an example... Ifyou look at Kiss' career, as Wrathy said they are huge sellouts... I mean Animalize and Asylum are sellout albums because they hopped on the lipstick/hair/LA glam badwagon, but they are great albums still. And Carnival Of Souls jumped on the mid-90s grungy heavy rock bandwagon of Alice In Chains, Ugly Kid Joe, Soundgarden, and bands like that... but that also rocks! Then if you look at Psycho Circus, where they tried to recapture the "classic" Kiss sound, its shit except for about 2 songs!

Another thing, I don't always think that the "poser" bands playing commercial mallcore are usually sellouts either. For nstance Korn and Slipknot aren't sellouts, because they never claimed to be a true metal band then decided to incorporate rapping because it would sell more records. (It's the 12 year old skater fans and idiotic music industry dingbats who call those bands metal because they hear heavy guitars and don't know what metal is). They just happen to suck and I just happen to hate their music. (BUT: I spose the test whether or not those bands are sellouts will come when the mallcore trend dies, and we will see if they keep playing that music or if they jump on the next bandwagon)

Same with deal with bands like Poison. Sure they were VERY commercial and far from "true metal", but Poison have proven that they are FAR from being sellouts, as they've pretty much stayed glam even through the 90s and 2000s now, in a time when glam metal is the laughing stock of the music industry. Poison though, unlike Korn and Slipknot, happen to rock and be good musicians and entertainers.

Warrant, on the other hand, were a much better band than Poison, but they were sellouts because when glam died, they went alternative.

So yeah.... basically to me, to sell out is to abandon your fans and your roots to follow the trends that will bring you more money, and the bands that don't sell out are the ones who stick by what their fans and their music whether it is the popular thing at the time or not... And whether or not a band sells out doesn't make them a good or bad band because Kiss are my favourite band of all time despite their bandwagon jumping.

:D
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Over all the years that i have listened to music(from a very young age as my dad played harmonica and sang in a blues band so i grew up listening to the blues which i stiil love) there has probably really only been one band that i believed has truly sold out(as a couple of people have said selling out by definition is changing your music to play what you think people might like!) and that band is METALLICA.I will argue this to the day i die!..there is probably nothing i am more passionate about than this discussion!I have listened to Metallica since 1985 and first saw them in 1989 in Sydney and then again(twice) in 1993(i think..black album tour) and the later in the 90's(load tour,i think..pretty disappointing!)
I think Kill Em All,Ride the Lightning,Master of Puppets are sensational.....probably 3 of my all time favourite albums.Justice for All is a great album.Now we get to the black album.....enter Sandman is sensational and among my favourite Metallica songs.However,at the time i only had this on cassette but i never used to listen to the 2nd side of the cassette as it was pretty boring(and in hindsight looking back at it now, it was quite obviuosly the beginning of the end!!!!!!!)
When Load came out Utopia offered true fans the opportunity to buy the album at Midnight(9 hours before anyone had it on sale!) so i lined up for a couple of hours to get the most disappointing album of my life!!!!!!!!!I listened to it when i got home and have listened to it twice since.....the worst purchase i ever made
After that i refused to buy Reload!!

But the final reason why i truly beliee that Metallica SOLD OUT is that i was recently at a party with people who have known me for ten years(ie.they know i am Metallica fan!!) and they played something of either Load or Reload and i didn't even regconise that it was Metallica playing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
A "sell out" to me is a band who has a great style and changes it to something else that sounds just like everything in the mainstream music and claims it´s "trying to be different". In reality it is more radio dribble that is unneeded.
 
Hahaha didn't recognise it was Metallica. Except for James' voice, there is no similarity to me either.

Anthrax's stuff from when John Bush joined is the same. I wasn't into Anthrax in 1992, but I can imagine if I was and somebody played Sound Of White Noise, there is no way in hell that I'd recognise it was Anthrax. Even if someone showed me the cover I probably wouldn't have believed that was what was playing.

Everything about that album, Stomp and Volume 8 have no resemblance whatsoever to the Neil/Joey albums.
 
Originally posted by Ralphe


Over all the years that i have listened to music(from a very young age as my dad played harmonica and sang in a blues band so i grew up listening to the blues which i stiil love) there has probably really only been one band that i believed has truly sold out(as a couple of people have said selling out by definition is changing your music to play what you think people might like!) and that band is METALLICA.I will argue this to the day i die!..there is probably nothing i am more passionate about than this discussion!I have listened to Metallica since 1985 and first saw them in 1989 in Sydney and then again(twice) in 1993(i think..black album tour) and the later in the 90's(load tour,i think..pretty disappointing!)
I think Kill Em All,Ride the Lightning,Master of Puppets are sensational.....probably 3 of my all time favourite albums.Justice for All is a great album.Now we get to the black album.....enter Sandman is sensational and among my favourite Metallica songs.However,at the time i only had this on cassette but i never used to listen to the 2nd side of the cassette as it was pretty boring(and in hindsight looking back at it now, it was quite obviuosly the beginning of the end!!!!!!!)
When Load came out Utopia offered true fans the opportunity to buy the album at Midnight(9 hours before anyone had it on sale!) so i lined up for a couple of hours to get the most disappointing album of my life!!!!!!!!!I listened to it when i got home and have listened to it twice since.....the worst purchase i ever made
After that i refused to buy Reload!!

But the final reason why i truly beliee that Metallica SOLD OUT is that i was recently at a party with people who have known me for ten years(ie.they know i am Metallica fan!!) and they played something of either Load or Reload and i didn't even regconise that it was Metallica playing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

RALPHE! Get... out... of my... HEAD!

But I'd like to pinpoint the exact moment when my faith in Metallica began to crumble:
Before 'Load' was released, I went to the press conference James and Jason did at the Metro. I asked James the question: "Do you think that Metallica headlining Lollapalooza this year will see a renewed interest in metal in the States?" His answer? "I dunno. Hope so."
I wanted to die at that precise moment.
 
Originally posted by Goreripper

Before 'Load' was released, I went to the press conference James and Jason did at the Metro. I asked James the question: "Do you think that Metallica headlining Lollapalooza this year will see a renewed interest in metal in the States?" His answer? "I dunno. Hope so."
I wanted to die at that precise moment.
Click to expand...

James also added after that: "It doesnt really matter though, we are hoping to lead a country revival and we will be chicken picken our way through Master Of Puppets from now on, because we feel that now we are real artists that we should expand our boundaries and not be pigeon holed, so Kirk is going to pretend he is an 80 year old blues player who thinks one note is all that counts, Lars is just gonna lose it and play his drums like a 5 year old wimp and Im gonna add "yeaaaahh!" and "babay!" to the end of every song line. I really think we are expanding horizons past metal. Which we never were in the first place of course, nasty business that Metallica name when I look back, we really should have gone for Blitzer or Red Vette......."

:D
 
Originally posted by Southy
good to see ya find it interesting winmar..and yea with every year that passes it seems like Metallica loses a little more integrity
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When they did Load/Reload I thought it was just a bad phase, now there is certainly on turning back.
 
Originally posted by The Trooper


When they did Load/Reload I thought it was just a bad phase, now there is certainly on turning back.
Click to expand...

I know, im beginning to think they are lost to us............ :cry:
 
Yep.

When I saw and met them in 97, there was still such a strong Metallica spirit from the old fans and when they played at the ABC studios for a TV show (I watched) they were thrashing out the old classics in between just to entertain us all... it seemed like they'd just done 2 bad albums but were still Metallica at heart.

Garage Inc, although better than Load/Reload, made me realise Metallica was over. Just the whole vibe was so different around the band. Then S&M really confirmed that Metallica was over.

"Hey, we've already written enough crap songs for now. Let's ruin some classics too."

:(
 
Actually, I was willing to give Metallica the benifit of the doubt over Load and Reload. I was thinking, well they've matured and maybe their tastes have changed. That's cool.

But then they went after the whole Napster thing. That's when they lst me completely. Hell, it was bootlegs that got them started then they just wanted to stop the whole bootleg thing. That's where they really lost my respect.

Has anyone heard that clip? Don't know who it's by.

To the tune of "Puppets"
Napster (Napster) Napster (Napster), where's the cash that I've been after.

It's funnier when you hear it.
 
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