2008 Political debate thread

[symphonyXjapan]

Are you taking estrogen pills?
Seriously, and this should have been on my last post to Swabs as well...
If THIS was my sole deciding factor, than yeah, it might be a little odd. Then again, it's my fucking vote, to do with as I see fit. Just like music, when it comes to politics, it really just boils down to your opinion or mine.



1) I stand by my OPINION of the PERSON being able to handle a "crisis" situation, it has ZERO to do with whether they are Donkey or Elephant.

2) I'd love to moderate that debate....Without bias, of course!

3) Yes, her voice is annoying. But it's a far cry from the nails on the chalkboard that is Hillary....

Ya got me there man....I'm a feminine pill popper! (have to note that is sarcasm there JUST in case someone wants to say it isn't)

But seriously, I thought that people who listened to metal were generally more open-minded? The problem with this country is this whole two party system. Everyone thinks that political views have to be either "left" or "right". Why? It is simple to understand that there is a WHOLE lot of space in-between; and my philosophy with everything about the world has been that balance makes things perfect.

Republicans generally didn't like McCain at all because he is not quite as far left as the rest of them are, which is why he has failed to become the republican nominee many times in the past. However; knowing that a typical far left conservative would of had no chance this time around due to the Bush years being so heavily dissaproved by the majority of citizens, republican's "settled" for McCain as he is there best chance to win over independent voters. This is the only reason why the polls aren't showing the democratic nominee (Obama) ahead by a huge amount.

What I like about Obama is that he seems to me to be pretty close to that perfect conservative/liberal balance. Like the post above by fullnelson stated, I don't really think Obama is quite as liberal as he makes himself out to be. This of course is the reason why I believe he is not too far left from the middle of the spectrum.

I have already debated about Marxist/socialist views before so I am not going to go into much detail here. All I have to say is that whoever thinks these types of ideas are nothing but evil things that lead to depraved social structures lead by cruel dictators have not truly studied the subject with an open mind. Of course I can't blame them too much since American society has done nothing but demonize these types of ideas since the birth of this nation. A society that is too heavily communistic will probably not be too great; however, a too heavily capitalistic society, which is what this country is under a far right conservative, is not a great thing either.

 

[Iced Dog]

a typical far left conservative

You've got your left and right mixed up But I see your point and I agree

 

[symphonyXjapan]

You've got your left and right mixed up But I see your point and I agree

Oops...simple mistake, I am human! lol

 

[J-Dubya 777]

But seriously, I thought that people who listened to metal were generally more open-minded?

Just what in my posts makes me close minded? Is it simply the fact that I won't vote for Slick Willie? When Obama was first nominated, I listened, and I actually considered voting for him, especially with the (mostly) pile of crappy nominees coming from the Republicans. As time wore on, just about everything he said struck me the wrong way. He doesn't suck, but for what we need NOW, it's my opinion that he is absolutely NOT the dude.

The rest of your post stands for what it is, & I couldn't agree more about the 2 party system. I just hope the whining dies down when Obama loses...

 

[Ascension]

Bla bla bla...about some conservative voting for B. Hussein Obama

We could go on all day with press releases of people voting for the other side. I'll let the liberals speak for themselves...


Two well-known New Hampshire Democrats have endorsed the Republican Party's presumptive presidential nominee. Jim McConaha and Valery Mitchell, who have pledged their support to U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), will serve as co-chairs of "New Hampshire Democrats for McCain."

McConaha was a political appointment of President Clinton and served as New Hampshire director for the federal Farm Service Agency and was recently a member of U.S. Sen. Chris Dodd's presidential Steering Committee.
Mitchell was a member of John Kerry's Steering Committee in 2004 and also supported Dodd in 2008. She is a former organizer of the Democratic Network.
"It was not easy to step away from my party in the McCain-Obama race, but I want a president whose judgment we know and trust, and a leader who will do what is in the best interest of our country without regard to politics or ideology," Mitchell said in a campaign press release.
McConaha also cited McCain's judgement.
"This is the most important job in the world. We need a leader of proven competence, tested judgment and substantial experience in the modern world and, obviously, that is John McCain."

 

[symphonyXjapan]

Just what in my posts makes me close minded? Is it simply the fact that I won't vote for Slick Willie? When Obama was first nominated, I listened, and I actually considered voting for him, especially with the (mostly) pile of crappy nominees coming from the Republicans. As time wore on, just about everything he said struck me the wrong way. He doesn't suck, but for what we need NOW, it's my opinion that he is absolutely NOT the dude.

The rest of your post stands for what it is, & I couldn't agree more about the 2 party system. I just hope the whining dies down when Obama loses...

It has nothing to do with the fact that you won't vote for for Obama as I do not think voting for Obama automatically makes someone open-minded.

It has more to do with your narrow-minded view that someone is not tough(pussy) just because they don't think the world revolves around America (or rather they think it shouldn't). America is the most hypocritical country in the world and does not seem to realize that many nations and cultures do not want democracy. They want to keep their own cultures and traditions alive and live without the involvement of the U.S. We need to learn that we need not be involved in every foreign conflict as they usually do not have anything to do with us, which is a big factor in why a lot of this terrorism occurs. For example, we got involved in helping Israel when they have been at war forever with Palestine. Whatever special interest the U.S. has with helping Israel is not known to me; however, it only creates hatred towards us from the Palestinians. Clinton and Bush have both tried to help the two sides work things out, but it has never helped. Why? Well imagine as a kid being picked on at school by a bully who is getting help from another student, then later that same student who helped the bully tries to get you and the bully to be friends. That is just ridiculous. Lastly, I never understood how we get away with creating and possessing nuclear weapons when all we do is condemn the same actions by any other country. Just as we feel threatened by them do they not feel threatened by us? They don't want us to take over their country any more than we want them to take over ours.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Good stuff!

Some of what strikes me on many of these conversations makes me step back and think a bit, and two cliches come to mind.

If your mind is too open, your brain will fall out.

If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

And my new saying - you're born a liberal but grow up to be a conservative. Mostly because I'd like to see where some of the 16-25-year-old forumers here are in 10-20 years in their political views.

My take on the Liberal side of the house is that their brains have fallen out. And they've fallen for everything. A good leader is decisive and able to make sound decisions under fire. George Bush has not backed down one bit even though the entire liberal media has forged an all-out war campaign on him personally. He has kept to his plan. Some may say there was no plan - but I fall back to what JDub mentioned about those damned police sticking their heads into everything and mucking it up.

Do keep in mind that Bush may have less than a 30% approval rating, but also keep in mind that the Democratic Congress' approval ratings are below 18%. Pushing a Dem President on top of an already railing Congress will push us to ultimate failure. The Democrats have failed to deliver on their promised reforms, as they typically do. How can reform happen if they're chasing so many initiatives (ie, they stand for nothing and fall for anything)?

I'm glad to see American bishops speaking out against the contortions of church teachings by liberal politicians. That is awesome!

 

[Swabs]

I'll be voting McCain. I can't stand the republicans, but I'd rather vote for a bible thumper than a Marxist.

If you're referring to the simple idea of Health Care (something most Europeans consider to be a basic Human right) then

 

[noble savage]

Good stuff!

Some of what strikes me on many of these conversations makes me step back and think a bit, and two cliches come to mind.

If your mind is too open, your brain will fall out.

If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

And my new saying - you're born a liberal but grow up to be a conservative. Mostly because I'd like to see where some of the 16-25-year-old forumers here are in 10-20 years in their political views.

Definitely a lot of merit to this! When I was first able to register to vote a few years ago, I identified to a large extent with democrats, but now I'm beyond disgusted with them and I have really began to see what a bunch hypocrites they are (As you mentioned: Congress is a big one). With that said, I'm not 'conservative' as I share just the same amount of disgust for them. Not so much with their ideas (I agree with many of them), but mostly because of who they are and what they represent personally. I identify with none of them and my views aren't shared by any of them as a whole.

Which is why I'm now registered as Libertarian because there is no one underlying philosophy that I have to agree with.

 

[symphonyXjapan]

Good stuff!

Some of what strikes me on many of these conversations makes me step back and think a bit, and two cliches come to mind.

If your mind is too open, your brain will fall out.

If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

And my new saying - you're born a liberal but grow up to be a conservative. Mostly because I'd like to see where some of the 16-25-year-old forumers here are in 10-20 years in their political views.

My take on the Liberal side of the house is that their brains have fallen out. And they've fallen for everything. A good leader is decisive and able to make sound decisions under fire. George Bush has not backed down one bit even though the entire liberal media has forged an all-out war campaign on him personally. He has kept to his plan. Some may say there was no plan - but I fall back to what JDub mentioned about those damned police sticking their heads into everything and mucking it up.

Do keep in mind that Bush may have less than a 30% approval rating, but also keep in mind that the Democratic Congress' approval ratings are below 18%. Pushing a Dem President on top of an already railing Congress will push us to ultimate failure. The Democrats have failed to deliver on their promised reforms, as they typically do. How can reform happen if they're chasing so many initiatives (ie, they stand for nothing and fall for anything)?

I'm glad to see American bishops speaking out against the contortions of church teachings by liberal politicians. That is awesome!

This post here is a good example of what I meant by balance. We need both conservative and liberal qualities, but too much of one of them leads to a bad outcome. Liberals are so concerned about everyone on the planet that they tend to forget about protecting America; however, conservatives are so concerned about themselves that they tend to disregard how badly it affects everyone else in the world.

Believe it or not but I am a person that has not only liberal views, but also even some conservative views. I think that most people are this way; however, this two party system forces everyone to choose one side or the other and people tend to forget that they are unique by not agreeing with either side on every single issue to ever be. Obama is not at a perfect balance and is farther to the left than the right, but I do feel that he has enough conservative qualities that he will stand his own ground and use military if need be. He will not do as an extreme leftist would by never utilizing military forces no matter what situation occurs. Even though Obama is a little more left than right it is something that we need right now after the extreme right policies that have flourished over the past 8 years. The hotter the water is, the more cold water you have to use in order to get the temperature to a perfectly warm degree.

I have just a few other things to adress here:

1) Your statement of being born a liberal and growing old into being a conservative seems to have no relevance that I can see. There are just as many, if not more, older liberals as there are conservatives. Does the democratic party ring a bell?

2) I don't understand how McCain automatically has more experience? I don't find being in the military any more qualifying of making one president than being a community organizer. I also don't think age plays too much of a factor either, and even if it did people tend to forget that Obama is not as young as he may seem as he is nearing 50. If being in the military made you more qualified to be president then there are thousands of military people right now that are more qualified for the job than almost every politician out there...

 

[ABQShredHead]

Neither person has "experience" on the executive side of the house. Both are Senators, and history has shown Senators do not typically make good Presidents. They do not have the experience of running the budget and running the country. That's a huge undertaking and a monster task. Palin does at least have executive experience as governor - neither Obama nor Biden do.

No, an "I feel" mentality for Obama to keep us safe just does not work for me. As has been stated many times elsewhere, our President must be right on every attack of our country and shut down our threats every time. Our attackers need but one success. Too many people seem to have forgotten what happened seven years and one day ago. The Democrats have taken the stance that the Republicans are using scare tactics to influence our votes. I understand this point in absolution - one simple missed intelligence report or one moment's hesitation to respond to terror will lead to tragedy.

Our last Democrat President responded to a direct terror attack on the USS Cole by lobbing cruise missiles at nothing to hopefully scare the bin Laden camp. I see it worked very well. In fact, there's a very good book out called Losing bin Laden that shows what indecisiveness at the Executive rank can lead to. Bin Laden should have been taken care of under Clinton's administration, but ol' Bill thought we had more at stake in Somalia and in his cigar box.

War is terrible. I don't condone it. But military action is absolutely necessary when our safety and interests are at stake. And, yes, our interests include oil. As mentioned previously, Russia has a ton of power because they have oil. We have a bunch of tree huggers and salamander squeezers who lock our own country into dependence on other nations.

Cold water isn't going to do a &*#%ing thing for us. But it will raise my taxes, making it even more difficult to raise my family. That's an absolute. And that's an absolute I will not stand for. With a Dem President passing through all the crap from a Dem Congress, you'll see some very hot water very soon.

 

[Ascension]

Do keep in mind that Bush may have less than a 30% approval rating, but also keep in mind that the Democratic Congress' approval ratings are below 18%. Pushing a Dem President on top of an already railing Congress will push us to ultimate failure. The Democrats have failed to deliver on their promised reforms, as they typically do. How can reform happen if they're chasing so many initiatives (ie, they stand for nothing and fall for anything)?

Absolutely...this scares me more than anything. It was basically a "promise them anything" to get majority rule & then...nothing. Absolutely friggin' nothing! And the lack of approval shows...and it's funny how the Dems were slaggin' Bush for his low ratings...now their's are worse. Kharma is a bitch.
Throw a Dem Prez in the mix & we are in severe trouble.

 

[symphonyXjapan]

Cold water isn't going to do a &*#%ing thing for us. But it will raise my taxes, making it even more difficult to raise my family. That's an absolute. And that's an absolute I will not stand for. With a Dem President passing through all the crap from a Dem Congress, you'll see some very hot water very soon.





Do you earn enough money that you are considered to be in the top 5 percentile of richest people in America? I doubt it. And even if you were you would still be living at a level well above the other 95% of people who will be getting tax cuts. Not only that but you would be "serving" your country by helping the largest class of people in the country (middle class) be able to better afford to live. The middle class IS the backbone of the country, and without people doing those types of jobs the richest people couldn't be as wealthy as they are. It wouldn't hurt huge corporate CEO's to sacrifice one, maybe two flights in their private jets per year to pay a tax that helps the backbone of society live a little better.

From your sig it seems as if you are a small business owner (it says you own a brewery, correct me if I am wrong please). My father and uncles have owned a local construction business since before I was born. I know that they always vote republican because they always use scare tactics that the democrats will tax the hell of of them. I could see that happening to small business owners, but only if the democrat were as liberal as they come; however, the case usually is (and definately with Obama) not true at all. The biggest, greediest corportations (those 5% mentioned earlier) are really the only ones who feel the slightest affect from it. All those scrooges care about is not losing a single dime more than everyone else in the country. Even if everyone else consists of the middle class and poor.

 

[Yngvai X]

If you're referring to the simple idea of Health Care (something most Europeans consider to be a basic Human right) then

Not healthcare (although I don't agree its a human right) but moreso this stuff:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/another_obama_marxist.html

 

[J-Dubya 777]

.

It has more to do with your narrow-minded view that someone is not tough(pussy) just because they don't think the world revolves around America (or rather they think it shouldn't). America is the most hypocritical country in the world and does not seem to realize that many nations and cultures do not want democracy. They want to keep their own cultures and traditions alive and live without the involvement of the U.S. We need to learn that we need not be involved in every foreign conflict as they usually do not have anything to do with us, which is a big factor in why a lot of this terrorism occurs. For example, we got involved in helping Israel when they have been at war forever with Palestine. Whatever special interest the U.S. has with helping Israel is not known to me; however, it only creates hatred towards us from the Palestinians.

Lastly, I never understood how we get away with creating and possessing nuclear weapons when all we do is condemn the same actions by any other country. Just as we feel threatened by them do they not feel threatened by us? They don't want us to take over their country any more than we want them to take over ours.

First paragraph above - Show me one post where I said everything revolves around America, or where I called them pussies. Piss-ant little country = insignifigant little country. They are not the same.And PLEASE seperate my pussification declarations from any other country but the US. I can only speak of pussification here, although someone chimed in earlier that it's was happening in their country too. I thought I explained that earlier, but apparantly I didn't. I do NOT believe everything revolves around the US, nor do I like the role of World Police. Name me one ONE country whose culture we've destroyed? Name me ONE war/police action/conflict we got involved in STRICTLY due to them not being a democracy. If a country doesn't want to get involved with us, perhaps thei leaders need to rattle their sabres & make genocidal remarks at someone else. As for Israel, they're an ally in a VERY turbulent part of the world. Why are we involved, energy, and probably because of what Hitler attempted to do in WWII. Yo're not an antisemite are you? I'm not Jewish, but I need to make sure before I bother wasting any time on this.

paragraph 2 - I can't think of a more responsible country to have its finger on the button, so to speak. I don't think you have to worry about a nuclear war STARTING with America. Should every unstable country/nation have nukes? Somalia? Iran? The US doesn't want to take over anybody, unless those other countries force our hand.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I only wish I owned a brewery. The Backyard Brewery is exactly that - the brewery in my backyard. Sadly, out of commission for two years now due to the tots running around. But, I'm about to fire it back up. First up will be my Arrogant Bastard clone once McCain wins. If Obama wins, I guess I'll downgrade to Light Swill.

No, I'm not in that 5% range (yet!), but I'm doing well enough for myself. The upper 5% will not pay the gross taxes Obama is suggesting, and your statement about them "sacrificing" their money for the greater good is one of my pet peeves. Get the lower class off their respective butts, off welfare, and contributing to society. If somebody's working hard and making money, regardless if they're making 50,000 a year or 50 million a year, they are working hard to get it. (I am referring to people who have every ability to work but choose not to because it's easier in their minds to sit home and collect government checks all month - soundbite me wrong and you may be dealing with a JDub attitude [see Post 12451 in the Official Off Topic Thread). The middle class is the largest class in the US, and they will always bear the tax burden, regardless of what any politico deals to the public.

 

[razoredge]

Metal listeners = open minded ? Ya OK

The idealology of youth is such a wonderful.... short sited thing

Heres one for JD & Mark for thought over idealology

Myself they are all politicians and they can all go suck a _____. Regardless who is elected, nothing will be done, nothing will change. 4/8/12/16/20 years from now the issues will still be the same. The rich will be richer and the mass of the population will still be holding their hand on their ass, living a life of massive credit debt, drowning in a sea of political correctness and the people of the middle east will still be wack jobs making well from our unaccepted culture.

Go figure

 

[fullnelson]

Name me one ONE country whose culture we've destroyed?

I'd say many Native American nations or the Hawaiian Kingdom.

I only wish I owned a brewery.

Ditto.

 

[J-Dubya 777]

I'd say many Native American nations or the Hawaiian Kingdom.

Touche!

I think I addressed the American Indian thing earlier in the thread...

 

[Proghead3]

I will be voting for Barack Obama this time around.

The whole "experience" issue is a moot point as far as I am concerned. What makes a President a great President is the judgment to properly confront unique challenges. For all their combined experience, Dick Cheney and George W. Bush failed in their response to hurricane Katrina and they made a huge blunder in starting the Iraq War. They squandered the good-will of the world in a war that cost thousands of American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, billions of dollars (money we don't even have), and destabilized a large region in the Middle East. I have yet to see what benefit the war provided.

Furthermore, for all of McCain's "experience" he claimed the Iraq War would be a walk in the park stating, "I believe that success will be fairly easy" (9/24/2002). Also, he said "There's no doubt in my mind that once these people are gone, that we will be welcomed as liberators" (3/24/2003).

Obama is more thoughtful than McCain, and, while I disagree with many of Obama's economic policies, he is the more erudite of the two candidates.

What really bothers me about McCain is his hawkishness and, even more so, his vice presidential pick. McCain is 72 years old with a history of health issues and the prospect of Sarah Palin as President is downright frightening, especially after watching her interview with Charlie Gibson. She didn't even understand what the "Bush Doctrine" was, something that I'd expect most high school students ought to know. I had to turn off my TV because I was so embarrassed for her.

Obama is not by any means an amazing candidate, I would of much preferred General Wesley Clark, but McCain/Palin is the surefire ticket to failure.