9/11 aka Sept.11 ... five years later

[Magrathean]

Is it realy that dusty over there? Clean as where i live.... Hardly ever have to dust.

Twenty-one-million people in a single city. And Cuernavaca is only about forty kilometers from that, and the population of Cuernavaca doubles every weekend just from people who come from Mexico City for the weekend. Yes, it's dusty.

Are you expecting us to celebrate these dates?

No, i don't expect you to consider these dates special. They're special for reasons that pertain to Ivana and me alone.

And what exactly are we supposed to do with the flag on the day of total gayness, if you don't mind my asking?

I suppose plintus would be a better person to ask this to.

I wouldn't mind joining in to the 9/11 celebrations. They beat some of the civil festivities in Italy hands down. Hey, look, on this day sixty years ago we switched sides in a war again! Woohoo!

I'm not saying it's the world's shittiest festivity, i'm just saying it should remain inside USA because it is a usaian thing. Do you see anyone that's not mexican celebrating the mexican revolution day?

What happens on 17 of march, except for my birtday?

You know Rincewind? Well, it's the day we “officially” started being a couple.

Wow, what a nice load of cowshit.

He says "and i really don't remember any other 09.11, because it's just another day in the year", which is bullshit and hes lying only to show how unimportant the date is to him. And thats stupid.

Errrrrr, no, i wasn't lying, i really don't remember any 09.11 except the one on 2001 (and, of course, i can recall some of the things i did two days ago, but that's because it was fucking two days ago). I don't even notice it's 09.11 when it is ever since about four or five years ago, when i stopped being the kind of boy who would always know which day it was and look at a calendar several times a day to confirm that it is, in fact, that day.

If the only thing he remembers about 9/11/2001 is that he had a flu (and felt like shit absolutely not because of the WTC shit - shit shitty shitty, wow, how cool you must be for saying that?), and then says I dont remember any other 9/11, its pretty obvious what its supposed to mean.

It's not supposed to mean anything, it means i don't see anything special in 09.11 and i don't remember anything i did on any 09.11 in my life except the one five years ago. I never bashed USA on this thread, i never said “omg, USA is stupid and should die” or anything in that vein, and i never mentioned anything that might seem like i hate that country. The only time i mentioned USA was to say that 09.11 should be a usaian holiday and not an international one.

Just wondering, does anyone remember the date London started blowing up right left and center? Cos I don't ... Over here the media tried to make out that was the UK equivalent of 11/9. Idiots.

Another thing to prove my point: Why is 09.11 any more important than the day London was bombed and the day Madrid was bombed? I don't remember those days either, and i don't even remember the dates; the only reason i remember the numbers 09 and 11 is that everyone's made such a big deal about that incident. It is awful that a lot of people died. It is awful (to a much lesser extent, of course) that New York's landscape has changed forever. Sure, maybe more people died that day than in London or Madrid, but then it's a bigger thing because more people died, not because it was USA.

 

[rahvin]

Do you see anyone that's not mexican celebrating the mexican revolution day?

Let's put it this way: to some, or possibly many, the attack on WTC meant the realization that rather strong forces are determined to use violence against civilians in the Western World to make their cause be heard. This might have repercussions once other countries are targeted (it actually has repercussions on other countries even if only the USA are ever targeted, but let's not go there), in terms of loss of lives, or freedoms, or a certain quality of life. They commemorate the date of the attack because it inspires dread?

 

[Kovenant84]

Ok, a couple of things.

I'm not participating in a Plintus-sponsored Love-Fest day. Let's get that clear right off the bat. Unless Plintus remains where he is, and I'm in Boston. Then maybe we'll talk.

We (as in people from the US) aren't forcing other countries to participate in a day of mourning. Don't act as though we force all our memorial days on other countries - I mean, hell, when was the last time you were forced to remember July 4th, Memorial Day or Labor Day? The only reason 9/11 is remembered internationally is because it was a message to all countries who thought they were safe at home. Moreso than the London and Spain bombings, because, again, they did not remove huge symbols of the country's identity in the process. That brings up another point. This is not an issue of pride in the sense I'm seeing it thrown around in. If you mean pride as in pride in one's country's achievements at home and for its people, and for cultural identity, then yes, it is pride. It is NOT 'Oh wow, america is the best evar! We can blwo you up!' pride. This was a huge blow to everyone I know, even if they weren't affected personally by the loss of a loved one. Why? Because hell, we're NYC. We build big shit and are proud of it. Because it makes us better than you? No. Because it gives us a sense of accomplishment and gives us the right to say we did it. It's like climbing Everest. It's personal pride. The fact that someone could take that away from us was unthinkable. Did we build it? Yes, but it took years of planning and hard work for us to, and when we were done, we took great pride in our accomplishment. And then someone wiped it off the face of the earth in less than a day. The reason 9/11 is remembered (aside from all of the emergency personel that lost their lives and drew the connection in everyone's mind of 9/11 = 911) is the fact that something so symbolic of this city was wiped out so quickly.

I'm pretty sure I had more to say, but the ranting made me forget. I'll post it if I think of it.

~kov.

 

[Taliesin]

Do you see anyone that's not mexican celebrating the mexican revolution day?

That's just stupid. Does the mexican revolution day affect international politics? Does it affect the way I have to apply for a visum if I want to go to the US? Does it affect what I can take on a plane? Does it affect how I feel about the security of my own country?

I have my problems with how 9/11 is remembered, but I never argued its significance. Im not saying every september 11th is special or anything, but 9/11 2001 was. Saying that it wasnt is either because you completely ignore or just dont perceive at all the changes that international politics have undergone or because it's an antiamerican impulse along the lines of "Why do you always bother me with your bullshit?" which would be around equally as stupid.

 

[plintus]

Ok, a couple of things.

I'm not participating in a Plintus-sponsored Love-Fest day. Let's get that clear right off the bat. Unless Plintus remains where he is, and I'm in Boston. Then maybe we'll talk.

I'm flying to Boston. No, seriously

Business trip.

p.s. you are fucked.

I mean, hell, when was the last time you were forced to remember July 4th, Memorial Day or Labor Day?

Hey, I'll be celebrating Southern Korea's independence day if it means paid day off for me

 

[fireangel]

There's a huge wave of protest against that - like, tapping the phones of ones who are suspected participating in terrorism. But I'd rather have my phone tapped than have a plane fly into the building where I work. Plus - even sane people don't rely on phones/e-mails any longer when they have to discuss something really important. And fucking terrorist would be twice more cautious.

wouldn´t it be nicer that criminals´ phones would be tapped instead of yours?
And the point I mentioned already: there is enough evidence against a lot of people which are not in jail yet. I´d prefer that some of them would be caught first of all. It´s not even difficult, they are not all in some remote mountain area, many live in European countries (or were in the US, and have been let go) and are not bothered. I cannot understand that radical muslim groups are allowed to exist in Germany. Yes, there is this theory that they can be better checked if they are kind of "public" instead of completely underground, but what´s with the facts which police and intelligence service have gathered until now; should be enough to send them away, and not mis-use our laws and freedom to create a zone where the sharia is law and to preach hate against liberalism and democracy. If they hate those two things so much, why do they live here?

 

[plintus]

wouldn´t it be nicer that criminals´ phones would be tapped instead of yours?
And the point I mentioned already: there is enough evidence against a lot of people which are not in jail yet. I´d prefer that some of them would be caught first of all. It´s not even difficult, they are not all in some remote mountain area, many live in European countries (or were in the US, and have been let go) and are not bothered. I cannot understand that radical muslim groups are allowed to exist in Germany. Yes, there is this theory that they can be better checked if they are kind of "public" instead of completely underground, but what´s with the facts which police and intelligence service have gathered until now; should be enough to send them away, and not mis-use our laws and freedom to create a zone where the sharia is law and to preach hate against liberalism and democracy. If they hate those two things so much, why do they live here?

You've got to go through the pile of conservative shit to move those fucks out of the country. Plus - not all of them are hostile, so you got to be very careful, and it's really hard to determine whether one is guilty of preaching hatred, rather impossible till crime happens. And no one is going to sponsor that.

And here we are again at fucking human rights (freedom of speech and shit). I mean - it sounds nice, but when has it done any good? Since the beginning it was for purposes of rebels to be heard, and everyone excersizing this right was more or less fucked.

"I have a dream" my ass.

 

[Magrathean]

Let's put it this way: to some, or possibly many, the attack on WTC meant the realization that rather strong forces are determined to use violence against civilians in the Western World to make their cause be heard. This might have repercussions once other countries are targeted (it actually has repercussions on other countries even if only the USA are ever targeted, but let's not go there), in terms of loss of lives, or freedoms, or a certain quality of life. They commemorate the date of the attack because it inspires dread?

Ok, that's another thing. I admit that i hadn't looked at it that way. But then call it “the day of dread” or “the day of terrorism”, not “the day of the attack on the Twin Towers”.

Does the mexican revolution day affect international politics?

As a matter of fact, yes. Porfirio Díaz was a president who turned Mexico into, if not a world power, a very important nation economically (and thus politically as well, because that's the world we live in) in his time. Perhaps if he hadn't been taken down with that revolution Mexico would be another country today (maybe worse, maybe better, but another country, and the chance that it would have a say in global affairs like Europe and USA do now is always a possibility).

Does it affect the way I have to apply for a visum if I want to go to the US?

Read above; maybe it wouldn't affect a trip to USA, but it would affect a trip to Mexico.

9/11 2001 was [important]. Saying that it wasnt is either because you completely ignore or just dont perceive at all the changes that international politics have undergone or because it's an antiamerican impulse along the lines of "Why do you always bother me with your bullshit?" which would be around equally as stupid.

I do realize the changes in world politics it has had, but then why don't we remember the day as “the day USA decided to bomb the Middle East” or “the day airports became fucking hell”? I do realize that it was an important day regarding world politics and whatnot, but it wasn't important to me as an individual, and that's all i said and wanted to say. And i'm not an antiusaian, even if i might come across as one sometimes. First of all, that “if you're not with us you're against us” mentality is stupid, and you're adopting it in assuming that i'm speaking against USA just because i'm not speaking in favor of it. As i mentioned before, i haven't said a single thing against USA on this thread. Second, having spoken against USA in some other thread or at some point in my life doesn't make me an antiusaian; i could speak something about any other country in the world (and i speak against Mexico a lot, by the way), but does that mean that i am against that country? No, it just means that i don't agree with some aspect of its politics, the way of life of its citizens, its overall form of society or any other thing about it.

 

[marduk1507]

@plintus: The way you can switch from completely reasonable to completely idiotic amazes me, dear.

 

[fireangel]

Plus - not all of them are hostile, so you got to be very careful, and it's really hard to determine whether one is guilty of preaching hatred, rather impossible till crime happens. And no one is going to sponsor that.

Nope, that´s what the observation and spying did well
There is proof, tape recordings, phone recordings and publications. There is also information about the curriculum and teaching for example of this King-Fahd-Academy here. It just wasn´t acted on it, which I can´t understand.

 

[Kovenant84]

I'm flying to Boston. No, seriously

Business trip.

p.s. you are fucked.

Which is funny, considering that the action you specified was part of the reason I was heading up there. Although I had really hoped it was with someone rather more... female (not to mention pretty, and a host of other qualities)... than yourself, hehe. But seriously, when are you gonna be up there? Just for a couple of days? I'm gonna be up there this weekend and next. I probably won't have time to stop by and say hi, but just to keep an eye out if I'm near downtown Boston.

Hey, I'll be celebrating Southern Korea's independence day if it means paid day off for me

Well, fuck. Of course. I think most Americans would. Although that really doesn't help our image, does it?

~kov.

 

[Taliesin]

I do realize the changes in world politics it has had, but then why don't we remember the day as “the day USA decided to bomb the Middle East” or “the day airports became fucking hell”? I do realize that it was an important day regarding world politics and whatnot, but it wasn't important to me as an individual, and that's all i said and wanted to say.

Because "The day the USA decided to bomb the Middle East" or whatever wouldnt quite cut it.
Also, even if the changes dont affect the way your cornflakes taste in the morning, the way your country positions itself towards the US or muslim countries does affect you to some extent, no? Im not saying 9/11 changed every day I live, I was just asking that you recognize its significance and apparently you do. In an unusual way but whatever floats your boat.
Moving on!

 

[hyena]

Madrid: march 11, 2004.
London: july 7, 2005.

this said, will you people please stop calling 9/11 a "festivity" or a "holiday"? are you mad?

i think that kov just gave a very moving proof of personal humanity and civic resilience with his post. i would not have been able to explain that because, well, i didn't know, not being a new yorker or even an american. respect.

 

[plintus]

@plintus: The way you can switch from completely reasonable to completely idiotic amazes me, dear.

I'm a one trick pony - I never go back

Nope, that´s what the observation and spying did well
There is proof, tape recordings, phone recordings and publications. There is also information about the curriculum and teaching for example of this King-Fahd-Academy here. It just wasn´t acted on it, which I can´t understand.

Still you'd have to enforce anything radical, because gathering proof is only half of it anyway. How can you calm barbarians with deep pockets? I know only one efficient method - carpet bombings :Smokin:

Which is funny, considering that the action you specified was part of the reason I was heading up there. Although I had really hoped it was with someone rather more... female (not to mention pretty, and a host of other qualities)... than yourself, hehe. But seriously, when are you gonna be up there? Just for a couple of days? I'm gonna be up there this weekend and next. I probably won't have time to stop by and say hi, but just to keep an eye out if I'm near downtown Boston.

I'll be in New York sooner, and Boston is planned to be one day trip for a meeting - I got to rush back home to catch Beatallica in concert

Well, fuck. Of course. I think most Americans would. Although that really doesn't help our image, does it?

Well, this isn't like enforcing democracy overseas, it's more of a cultural thing, so I'd give it a green light

 

[Magrathean]

the way your country positions itself towards the US or muslim countries does affect you to some extent, no?

Try as i might, i can't think of a single way in which it affects me. Sure, if USA suddenly decided to bomb Mexico or Croatia it would affect me greatly, but, since they haven't decided to do that yet, i could care less about the way Mexico, Croatia or USA treat muslim countries and/or each-other (except as far as discussion goes, in which case i do care, but that's not my life, that's just discussion).

this said, will you people please stop calling 9/11 a "festivity" or a "holiday"?

What should we call it, then? I never meant 'festivity' or 'holiday' as in "happy day", i meant it as in "national day-that-means-something-and-has-consequences-on-some-people's-lives".

are you mad?

According to most people i know, yes.

Moving on!

.

 

[Rayna]

Man we are going to end up like everyone else and end up killing each other...

 

[King Chaos]

Anyone ever seen 25th hour? It's a film shot post 11/9 that depicts what kov described rather well. The communities resilience, but also the communities shock depression. Spike Lee and edward Norton did such a good job.

Although it's kind of irrelevant now, I do remember where I was when I found out. I came out of an extra curricular latin lesson at school. It was 4.20pm and my dad was waiting to pick me up. His face was grave and concerned, and maybe alittle confused. He told me all hell had broken loose. He told me the trade towers had been attacked and terrorists are destroying american landmarks right left and center. I got home and we watched the events unfold. I felt sad for the people dying, but in a sick way, excited by knowing the events taking place were going to change history forever. Nothing of that magnitude had ever happened in my life time. The only thing close was Diana's death, and I don't remember anything about that except morning cartoons were cancelled.

Anyway, although this serves little purpose, perhaps the reason I, as an individual, felt it was a huge event and have remember it so well is due to my fear of tall buildings. This is, honest to god, how I, some what subconsciously, imagined Newyork through my irrational fear...

It's like... intergalactic.

 

[Magrathean]

Man, what ever did you do to poor Europe?!

 

[Rayna]

It's like... intergalactic.

I don't even get that...

 

[hyena]

i'm kind of starting to like plintus.

also, i would have some political stuff to say, but i need sleep.