About Progressive music...

[Kenneth R.]

There's a trick around that. For processed midi tracks (VST instruments) you do what you do to arrange and orchestrate it, then "render it" to an audio file, reload that track (but of course keep the original in case you want to make changes.) Now when you run the song, that part is just audio so all it has to do is play it, no processing in real time, saves tons of system resources. Same thing for effects like delay on audio tracks, just turn it off after you get it right, and turn them all back on in the final mixdown. Using this method, I've recorded songs with 20+ track polyphony, multiple VSTs, effects, and channel routing with realtime mixboard control changes, on a PC that's over 6 years old. You don't need to waste 7000 dollars on a mac.

 

[Swabs]

There's a trick around that. For processed midi tracks (VST instruments) you do what you do to arrange and orchestrate it, then "render it" to an audio file, reload that track (but of course keep the original in case you want to make changes.) Now when you run the song, that part is just audio so all it has to do is play it, no processing in real time, saves tons of system resources. Same thing for effects like delay on audio tracks, just turn it off after you get it right, and turn them all back on in the final mixdown. Using this method, I've recorded songs with 20+ track polyphony, multiple VSTs, effects, and channel routing with realtime mixboard control changes, on a PC that's over 6 years old. You don't need to waste 7000 dollars on a mac.

Yeah, the problem being that Jari says the songs of the new album consist of around 200+ tracks. And that method, however clever, would probably be too time consuming for music on such a scale as Wintersun.

 

[Wander]

There's a trick around that. For processed midi tracks (VST instruments) you do what you do to arrange and orchestrate it, then "render it" to an audio file, reload that track (but of course keep the original in case you want to make changes.) Now when you run the song, that part is just audio so all it has to do is play it, no processing in real time, saves tons of system resources. Same thing for effects like delay on audio tracks, just turn it off after you get it right, and turn them all back on in the final mixdown. Using this method, I've recorded songs with 20+ track polyphony, multiple VSTs, effects, and channel routing with realtime mixboard control changes, on a PC that's over 6 years old. You don't need to waste 7000 dollars on a mac.

Yeah, I heard someone else explaining pretty much the same thing on another forum. I don't know if Mäenpää has been using it that way.

 

[Anaon]

Î don't know what you are talking about but 200 tracks for a song!! It's impressive!! Is it for an orchestra or something?

 

[Swabs]

Î don't know what you are talking about but 200 tracks for a song!! It's impressive!! Is it for an orchestra or something?

Wintersun, music (and now a band) created by the genius that is Jari Maenpaa. Quote from one of his web updates about the upcoming album that is taking forever to be completed.

The album is very huge, I don´t know if it´s gonna fit even in the 74 minutes of a CD. The track count is very high, about 200 tracks per song

http://www.wintermadness.net/

 

[Anaon]

Oh ok, thanks! I visited the website... I think I know how he feels, I work myself on my first album for 10 years

His fans seem to be really behind him, that's great!

 

[Wander]

Oh ok, thanks! I visited the website... I think I know how he feels, I work myself on my first album for 10 years

His fans seem to be really behind him, that's great!

It is. But I really wonder what Nuclear Blas (The record company) is doing. Shouldn't they be helping Jari and Wintersun?

But anyway, I strongly recommend the first Wintersun album for any fans of epic, melodic metal.

 

[Anaon]

It's normally the role of a record company... I thought...

Anyway, I have to find out how it sounds, I'm looking for good epic metal actually!

 

[Kenneth R.]

Wait, if we're talking about time consuming, which is worse? Spending some time properly utilizing system resources to get the project done at a slower pace, or waiting around for the funds to be able to afford to run it all at once? Somehow I think the "slower" method is going to get things done first.

 

[Horus]

I find it funny that we're talking about people taking a long time to make an album on the Symphony X forum. *puts onn Paradise Lost*

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

Having loads of tracks isn't something I find impressive. I'm not saying that it's useless, I mean, it will definitely add to the feel he's looking for, and will most-likely sound cool, but adding track after track over a structure that's already written is not difficult and worth praising at all (compositionally speaking). Getting it all to work with the computer programming/all that hardware tech stuff may be tough, but when composing music, it's harder to get a really awesome base structure to a song than adding multiple tracks.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Well this entire discussion is about the programming and hardware so yes, there is a challenge. It can be accomplished.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Having loads of tracks isn't something I find impressive. I'm not saying that it's useless, I mean, it will definitely add to the feel he's looking for, and will most-likely sound cool, but adding track after track over a structure that's already written is not difficult and worth praising at all (compositionally speaking). Getting it all to work with the computer programming/all that hardware tech stuff may be tough, but when composing music, it's harder to get a really awesome base structure to a song than adding multiple tracks.

I agree. Also, how will it be played live without sounding empty?

 

[Horus]

That's also smilar to exactly why bands nowadays aren't able to live up to legendary status the same as the classics. They have to rely on studio editing to put together a solid album. Everybody relies on the editing functions in ProTools and Logic nowadays to put together good songs.
Did Iron Maiden have to put so many backing guitars in their classic material? No, because they knew how to write in a way that it just came out just as solid anyway. Adrian Smith and Dave Murray are having a guitar duet? They turned up Steve Harris and added a bunch of crunch and a ridiculous amount of presence to his tone.
Did Emerson Lake & Palmer need 3 extra keyboard guys to fill in for parts that Keith Emerson couldn't play at the same time as other parts? No, because they knew how to write and play in a way that he knew how to fill in those sound holes, and how to do it good. (And also because Keith Emerson. He's like Jesus, but on keyboards.) He wrote the music so that he could play it with no more than his 2 hands, have it sound solid, and sound the same live as it does in the studio. Listen to the Hammond solo in Karn Evil 1 - Part 2. While Greg Lake is playing the guitar lines, how does he fill in that hole in the tone? Synth Bassline with the left hand. Yeah.
Did Rush do backing tracks on 2112?.... Actually wait, yeah. They did. But most of their (in my opinion) best songs are just the three of them being awesome. I mean come on.

Back in the day, you HAD to be good toget anywhere. People nowadays just hide their mistakes under more layers and over-production. I feel like a hypocrite though, because this is exactly what I want to do for the rest of my life. Yeah.

 

[razoredge]

regardless of the usefulness or foolishness of multiple tracks..... 200 tracks sounds hard to believe to me (BS), I have a feeling that is not being interpreted correctly.

 

[Meedleyx10]

That's also smilar to exactly why bands nowadays aren't able to live up to legendary status the same as the classics. They have to rely on studio editing to put together a solid album. Everybody relies on the editing functions in ProTools and Logic nowadays to put together good songs.
Did Iron Maiden have to put so many backing guitars in their classic material? No, because they knew how to write in a way that it just came out just as solid anyway. Adrian Smith and Dave Murray are having a guitar duet? They turned up Steve Harris and added a bunch of crunch and a ridiculous amount of presence to his tone.
Did Emerson Lake & Palmer need 3 extra keyboard guys to fill in for parts that Keith Emerson couldn't play at the same time as other parts? No, because they knew how to write and play in a way that he knew how to fill in those sound holes, and how to do it good. (And also because Keith Emerson. He's like Jesus, but on keyboards.) He wrote the music so that he could play it with no more than his 2 hands, have it sound solid, and sound the same live as it does in the studio. Listen to the Hammond solo in Karn Evil 1 - Part 2. While Greg Lake is playing the guitar lines, how does he fill in that hole in the tone? Synth Bassline with the left hand. Yeah.
Did Rush do backing tracks on 2112?.... Actually wait, yeah. They did. But most of their (in my opinion) best songs are just the three of them being awesome. I mean come on.

Back in the day, you HAD to be good toget anywhere. People nowadays just hide their mistakes under more layers and over-production. I feel like a hypocrite though, because this is exactly what I want to do for the rest of my life. Yeah.

This is a pretty good post. Rush is a fantastic example of how you don't need a bajillion tracks to fill the sonic spectrum. Live recordings of rush are some of my favorite recordings period....the biggest sounding trio in history and they make it work so well. This is the same reason Andy Timmons' Resolution is one of my all-time favorite recordings. One guitar, one bass, drums, and practically zero overdubs. I do enjoy what some people can do with a huge multi-track studio at their disposal, but there's really something to be said for guys that sound just as good (or better) without it.

 

[Iced Dog]

It is. But I really wonder what Nuclear Blas (The record company) is doing. Shouldn't they be helping Jari and Wintersun?

Ya know what, that's a good point! Hey NB, what gives??

 

[Wander]

regardless of the usefulness or foolishness of multiple tracks..... 200 tracks sounds hard to believe to me (BS), I have a feeling that is not being interpreted correctly.

Well, I remember him saying that it's not exactly like there's 200 tracks on the top of each other everywhere, he meant that with all the orchestrations in certain parts, synths, vocal choirs etc. there can be 200 tracks in total used in one song. (Note that the song may be like 10mins long)

 

[Anaon]

Having loads of tracks isn't something I find impressive. I'm not saying that it's useless, I mean, it will definitely add to the feel he's looking for, and will most-likely sound cool, but adding track after track over a structure that's already written is not difficult and worth praising at all (compositionally speaking). Getting it all to work with the computer programming/all that hardware tech stuff may be tough, but when composing music, it's harder to get a really awesome base structure to a song than adding multiple tracks.

I'm not finding it impressive in a composing way, absolutely not! It's like composing long songs, it's harder to write a 3 minutes song.

No, I was talking about the hardware tech!! A 30 tracks project with many effects needs a lot of power, memory, I understand very well why he needs a such powerful computer!!

 

[Wander]

Btw. For any people who may want to check Wintersun out:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=130374101