About Progressive music...
- Thread starter Krondor
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zacmenta
Member
Kenneth R.
Cináed
That's exactly the problem. So maybe we need a new word for pioneering music.
Ascension
New Metal Member
Right. At one time, Progressive was the keyword and was tagged to music that was not simplistic in form and had a variety of influences. Dream Theater pretty much set the standard & other bands fell in line. Now l've seen bands get tagged progressive that just have off the wall/quirky lyrical content but there's nothing special about the musical content...except maybe a good lead guitarist (ie Freak Kitchen). l would relate them more to Van Halen (hard rock) than any band described as "progressive". So...maybe it's time for another term to enter the forray.
Dream Theater set the standard? What about those 70's progressive rock bands? I think Robert Fripp started the whole thing... At one interview someone asked "Robert, your music is quite different than anyone elses, how would you describe it?" and Robert said "Progressive... Yeah that's it..."
Dream Theater may have some progressive elements but I don't think it's prog per se.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Dream Theater only popularized prog music in metal. You need to check out Procol Harum, Popol Vuh, Caravan, and the other 60s 70s prog leaders. Even then, after a few years the style had matured and become a genre, and wasn't unique anymore.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
I think for prog metal, not prog music in general, Dream Theater DID set the standard. DT doesn't sound like anything from the 60's or 70's...
Someone is saying something good about Dream Theater :O I need to save this!
Yeah Dream Theater was NOT the first Prog Metal band out there, but they did new standards despite everyones hate for their wankery lol
Yeah Dream Theater was NOT the first Prog Metal band out there, but they did new standards despite everyones hate for their wankery lol
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
Hey, i said they set the standard for other shitty bands... i don't know that this is such a good thing 
Ascension
New Metal Member
l understand what you're saying...l was into Yes, King Crimson, ELP, etc. back in the day. They just didn't have that "edge" l was looking for. Fates Warning came along & changed that...but DT took it a step further..."progressed" it so to speak especially with their musicianship. l guess it all depends on where your preferences lie...progressive rock...progressive metal. l think if you say progressive metal...DT is the band. Although DT's progressive rock tendencies are there. Hell...look at all the clones they spawned in the genre. Just about every band in the genre is influenced by them to an extent. l would say that's a standard. And I&W is the album they strive to make.
@ Zach: Really? I didn't see the word 'shitty' in your post! Most be hiding like the new guns & roses album!
@Ascension: If only Dream Theater themselves could make another Images & Words lol!
@Ascension: If only Dream Theater themselves could make another Images & Words lol!
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
As good as Images and Words is, I've really come to realize that the entire idea of using that as a standard is just a horrible idea as a whole. I mean how many Prog musicians haven't said "I want to make a Metropolis."
The entire problem with Prog music is that people don't realize that the idea of Progressive Music isn't to be technical and overly complex, but to just keep constantly trying new things for yourself. That's why at this point in time, I've just come to accept the fact that I really can like whatever the hell I want and not feel any less "Prog" or any less "Metal" about it.... Okay, maybe it does make me less Metal, but if anything, it makes me even more Prog, because the fact that I allow myself to accept more kinds of music into my tastes also helps me to better adjust myself to being able to write different styles of music and still keep it solid. In the end, that should be what matters. Not technicality or complexity.
In fact, recently I've found myself listening to less metal and less western music as a whole now that I think about it.
The entire idea of conventionalism in music is not only where the idea of Progressive comes from, but it's also the entire reason NOT to try to be Prog. When you try to stray from a genre, it's usually very difficult to do so unless you know a particular way to do it. You really can't do something if you don't know how to do it. Think about it; in the case of Prog, you can't play Odd Time Signatures if you don't know how to count in odd rhythms. I've actually seen bands watch my band play a gig, and then they come up to me the next day asking "Hey, what time signature is the guitar playing for the polyrhythm in Labyrinth?" and when I tell them it's in 5/4, they're like "Quit bullshitting me. You can't write in 5/4." (or they just look at me like I have 3 dicks) What's my point? This is my point.
YOU CAN'T BE PROG IF YOU HAVE TO TRY TO BE PROG.
And another point, over the years that I've been here, (holy crap; 3 years this March Oo) my personal definition of Prog has been constantly changing, and in reality, none of those definitions works at all. First, I thought Prog was all the Loltechnicalness, but then I was introduced to the idea that World Innovation = Progressive. Anything else does not = Progressive. After a while, I started thinking that it's really just a combination of the two, but now I just think that trying new things for yourself is what Prog is all about.
And by trying new things, I mean drastically different styles; I.E. doing some straight up metal songs or albums, and then just deciding to go for Jazz Jam Band, or just straight up Eastern Music, or even Synth-Techno-Rock-Metal (lolMyOwnMusic).
In reality though, labels are just completely wrong, because while it helps to identify what kind of music you are, it also puts restrictions and limitations on the artist. When you give yourself a label, it creates expectations for what you "should be doing" or whatever. How many bands do you listen to that you say "They should go back to the way they were."? That's a perfect example of exactly the kind of thing that I'm trying to argue against. I mean Metallica. They cut their hair and started to suck, but everyone still keeps saying after 20 years of epic failure that tehy should go back to how they were. Well first of all, their old stuff has a lot more youth to it that they now lack. Second of all, my main point, I honestly want to see them continue to try new things, because if they did go back to the way they used to be, then it would most likely be because the fans wanted them to.
And that's why I lost so much respect for Jon Schaffer when he brought Matt Barlow back to Iced Earth. I'm happy that Barlow is back, but it's the reason that he was brought back. Schaffer literally brought him back just because the fans told him to do so. (or that's the impression that I got)
Once again, my main point is that the entire idea of expectations, standards and labels is everything that's wrong with Progressive music. Too many people have too many ideas about what's Progressive, but in reality, everything is Progressive to a degree. Just because a band isn't technical doesn't make them not Progressive. Just because a band is technical doesn't make them Progressive. It makes them Prog, but not Progressive. And just to clarify that, it's gotten to the point now where the term "Prog" has become a completely seperate from Progressive. The common idea of Prog nowadays is Guitar, Bass, Keys, Drums, Vocals that are too good for the band's own good. Technical and crazy. The fact that there's no real genre that applies to that is part of why it became part of Progressive. Because Dream Theater started doing it, and people figured that the technical is what made them Prog and set them apart from the cheesy 80's and gay 90's bands. The fact that there's no real name for that kind of music is why it got pinned in Prog. In reality, technicality can be so Prog that it's not Progressive at all.
And the funny part is that I'm completely sober right now too, so this actually IS more than just mindless rambling.
The entire problem with Prog music is that people don't realize that the idea of Progressive Music isn't to be technical and overly complex, but to just keep constantly trying new things for yourself. That's why at this point in time, I've just come to accept the fact that I really can like whatever the hell I want and not feel any less "Prog" or any less "Metal" about it.... Okay, maybe it does make me less Metal, but if anything, it makes me even more Prog, because the fact that I allow myself to accept more kinds of music into my tastes also helps me to better adjust myself to being able to write different styles of music and still keep it solid. In the end, that should be what matters. Not technicality or complexity.
In fact, recently I've found myself listening to less metal and less western music as a whole now that I think about it.
The entire idea of conventionalism in music is not only where the idea of Progressive comes from, but it's also the entire reason NOT to try to be Prog. When you try to stray from a genre, it's usually very difficult to do so unless you know a particular way to do it. You really can't do something if you don't know how to do it. Think about it; in the case of Prog, you can't play Odd Time Signatures if you don't know how to count in odd rhythms. I've actually seen bands watch my band play a gig, and then they come up to me the next day asking "Hey, what time signature is the guitar playing for the polyrhythm in Labyrinth?" and when I tell them it's in 5/4, they're like "Quit bullshitting me. You can't write in 5/4." (or they just look at me like I have 3 dicks) What's my point? This is my point.
YOU CAN'T BE PROG IF YOU HAVE TO TRY TO BE PROG.
And another point, over the years that I've been here, (holy crap; 3 years this March Oo) my personal definition of Prog has been constantly changing, and in reality, none of those definitions works at all. First, I thought Prog was all the Loltechnicalness, but then I was introduced to the idea that World Innovation = Progressive. Anything else does not = Progressive. After a while, I started thinking that it's really just a combination of the two, but now I just think that trying new things for yourself is what Prog is all about.
And by trying new things, I mean drastically different styles; I.E. doing some straight up metal songs or albums, and then just deciding to go for Jazz Jam Band, or just straight up Eastern Music, or even Synth-Techno-Rock-Metal (lolMyOwnMusic).
In reality though, labels are just completely wrong, because while it helps to identify what kind of music you are, it also puts restrictions and limitations on the artist. When you give yourself a label, it creates expectations for what you "should be doing" or whatever. How many bands do you listen to that you say "They should go back to the way they were."? That's a perfect example of exactly the kind of thing that I'm trying to argue against. I mean Metallica. They cut their hair and started to suck, but everyone still keeps saying after 20 years of epic failure that tehy should go back to how they were. Well first of all, their old stuff has a lot more youth to it that they now lack. Second of all, my main point, I honestly want to see them continue to try new things, because if they did go back to the way they used to be, then it would most likely be because the fans wanted them to.
And that's why I lost so much respect for Jon Schaffer when he brought Matt Barlow back to Iced Earth. I'm happy that Barlow is back, but it's the reason that he was brought back. Schaffer literally brought him back just because the fans told him to do so. (or that's the impression that I got)
Once again, my main point is that the entire idea of expectations, standards and labels is everything that's wrong with Progressive music. Too many people have too many ideas about what's Progressive, but in reality, everything is Progressive to a degree. Just because a band isn't technical doesn't make them not Progressive. Just because a band is technical doesn't make them Progressive. It makes them Prog, but not Progressive. And just to clarify that, it's gotten to the point now where the term "Prog" has become a completely seperate from Progressive. The common idea of Prog nowadays is Guitar, Bass, Keys, Drums, Vocals that are too good for the band's own good. Technical and crazy. The fact that there's no real genre that applies to that is part of why it became part of Progressive. Because Dream Theater started doing it, and people figured that the technical is what made them Prog and set them apart from the cheesy 80's and gay 90's bands. The fact that there's no real name for that kind of music is why it got pinned in Prog. In reality, technicality can be so Prog that it's not Progressive at all.
And the funny part is that I'm completely sober right now too, so this actually IS more than just mindless rambling.
ABQShredHead
©1970
When it comes down to it, who really cares? It's a label on a "genre" of music. Some bands try to fit into the mold of the genre. Big deal. I dig Dream Theater, and, yes, I like them for their wankery. That's the kind of shit I like. Virtuosity. Does EVERYBODY else like it? No. But a lot of people like Country music as well. I like what I like and could care less about the labels one pushes them under.
Nice post Horus. I agree with you for most parts.
Like I said, I don't like genres. But I think everyone should think them as guidelines. For example if your friend asks you: "What kind of music do you like?" And you like metal for example. Wouldn't it be easier to say "metal" than "Some heavy shit with distorted guitars... " etc. (this was just to give you the idea, I don't really think that metal has to have distorted guitars).
And maybe I would like genres IF everyone would think that they are JUST guidlines, not a rule for the music or anything. And like I said genres can be very mis-leading because if this.
I guess the main reason I made this thread was to see what you guys think.
And I thank you for sharing your opinions.
Like I said, I don't like genres. But I think everyone should think them as guidelines. For example if your friend asks you: "What kind of music do you like?" And you like metal for example. Wouldn't it be easier to say "metal" than "Some heavy shit with distorted guitars... " etc. (this was just to give you the idea, I don't really think that metal has to have distorted guitars).
And maybe I would like genres IF everyone would think that they are JUST guidlines, not a rule for the music or anything. And like I said genres can be very mis-leading because if this.
I guess the main reason I made this thread was to see what you guys think.
And I thank you for sharing your opinions.
EyeballKid
Shyamalan'd
Horus, I didn't read that whole post (cause I'm lazy), but I agree with your capitalized mid-statement. The reason I like Symphony X is because they use their prog-tendencies only when they relate and enhance a song, not for the sole purpose of changing time signatures (I'm gonna say "like Dream Theater", but then leave it at that).
In my opinion, "progressive" just happens. If you go into a song saying "how can we make this odd, different, and complicated", instead of "how can we best serve the song?" you fail, in my opinion.
People buy your albums: your job is to be a songwriter, not a technician.
Now I'm going to go rock out to some Clutch and forget all about this silly sub-genre.
In my opinion, "progressive" just happens. If you go into a song saying "how can we make this odd, different, and complicated", instead of "how can we best serve the song?" you fail, in my opinion.
People buy your albums: your job is to be a songwriter, not a technician.
Now I'm going to go rock out to some Clutch and forget all about this silly sub-genre.
Ascension
New Metal Member
Umm that would be regressive instead of progressive...wouldn't it? l'll leave you with the example of Queensryche and Operation:Mindcrime II...failboat material.
Horus said:
Exactly...just what l addressed above. l enjoy the fact that DT have moved on from I&W...and hell...I&W is my favorite album by them.
Horus said:
l agree here too. Jon had advanced the IE brand with Ripper & put together the epic Framing Armageddon. Now he's reverting back...due to pressure from older fans. Fucked up.
EyeballKid, what you said in the 2nd paragraph thing is pretty much almost exactly what was going through my mind. Instead of thinking of how to make it more impressive, it's just a matter of doing what works best. Sometimes, odd time signatures or Dances of Eternity do work, but that doesn't mean it works in every single piece of music. Just like 4/4 doesn't always work best for every single song.
ABQ, you do have a point as far as identifying what kind of shit you're into, but that's almost the only scenario where genres actually do help something (despite the fact that it can be very misleading as well). But with describing what kind of music one may like, one usually ends up making the mistake of applying that idea to their own music as well. And that leads to my last post.
Progress can't be forced. It just comes when it's ready.
But another thought on the idea of Dream Theater making another Images and Words, I really don't think that anybody has actually said what they REALLY meant about that kind of thing happening... Or nobody's thought to put it in these words.
I don't want to see Dream Theater make another Images and Words, but I do want to see them write something again that can compare to it. And for the record, I personally thinkt hat if they'd left out the middle section of The Dark Eternal Night and Ministry of Lost Souls, then maybe Systematic Chaos could have compared. But that's just me.
ABQ, you do have a point as far as identifying what kind of shit you're into, but that's almost the only scenario where genres actually do help something (despite the fact that it can be very misleading as well). But with describing what kind of music one may like, one usually ends up making the mistake of applying that idea to their own music as well. And that leads to my last post.
Progress can't be forced. It just comes when it's ready.
But another thought on the idea of Dream Theater making another Images and Words, I really don't think that anybody has actually said what they REALLY meant about that kind of thing happening... Or nobody's thought to put it in these words.
I don't want to see Dream Theater make another Images and Words, but I do want to see them write something again that can compare to it. And for the record, I personally thinkt hat if they'd left out the middle section of The Dark Eternal Night and Ministry of Lost Souls, then maybe Systematic Chaos could have compared. But that's just me.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
All i am going to say on this subject that has arisen is not all bands should be progressive. Some bands are just better in the past. Harris, i understand what you're saying about the metallica example, but you also can't tell me you'd rather have a progression from st anger over another masterpiece like Puppets or Lightning. Not that this will happen, but progression is highly overrated in my mind. I mean, look at AC/DC, a band that has stuck to a formula and had tons of success, not to mention their quality never went up or down too much.
The thing is, i think especially within this circle there is too much emphasis on progression and such. No one really wants a ton of progression within a band, i'm convinced of that. They want the magic that drew them to the band in the first place. Look at this forum and how many people go "yeah, the new album is good, but i'd really like to see them make something in the vein of [V/DWoT/DG]" or "I don't like that they went heavier", yet in the same breath they will talk about how bands shouldn't stagnate and need to be less prog and more progressive (not singling anyone out here... just speaking of the general trend). I mean, hell, even Manowar who seem to have things down to a formula went ahead and fucked it all up on Gods of War, and that was not for the better in any way.
I'm not trying to say that bands should release the same album over and over, nor am i saying they should vastly change. All i mean to say is that not a single thing in the world will ever be an ultimate answer. And i like bands and albums that i like and dislike bands and albums that i don't like. neither of the likes or dislikes will ever be effected simply on if a band progresses or not from one album to the next.
The thing is, i think especially within this circle there is too much emphasis on progression and such. No one really wants a ton of progression within a band, i'm convinced of that. They want the magic that drew them to the band in the first place. Look at this forum and how many people go "yeah, the new album is good, but i'd really like to see them make something in the vein of [V/DWoT/DG]" or "I don't like that they went heavier", yet in the same breath they will talk about how bands shouldn't stagnate and need to be less prog and more progressive (not singling anyone out here... just speaking of the general trend). I mean, hell, even Manowar who seem to have things down to a formula went ahead and fucked it all up on Gods of War, and that was not for the better in any way.
I'm not trying to say that bands should release the same album over and over, nor am i saying they should vastly change. All i mean to say is that not a single thing in the world will ever be an ultimate answer. And i like bands and albums that i like and dislike bands and albums that i don't like. neither of the likes or dislikes will ever be effected simply on if a band progresses or not from one album to the next.
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