Alec's Tavern : The Frost Blast

[Qu Appelle]

Insanely stupid question - how similar is Swedish and Norwegian to each other? Like, could a Swede go to Norway and make themselves vaguely understood? Or are they not that much alike? What about reading?

 

[Mantraschism]

Yes, they are very similar (and so is Danish, although I think Norwegian and Swedish sound more alike). The reasons for their being classified as separate languages rather than dialects are more cultural and national than linguistic. Therefore, a Swede could go up to a Norwegian and be fairly well understood speaking his own language, although not perfectly. Remember that they were all once one language, Old Norse, which later split into Old East and Old West Norse, which then became, respectively, Old Swedish and Old Danish, and Old Icelandic and Old Norwegian (and also Faroese).

I can only assume that Sweden's and Norway's close proximity to one another is the reason they ended up sounding more alike than, say, Norwegian and Danish, the latter being influenced by its continental European neighbors and coastal trading in Copenhagen (hence its comparatively 'flat' sound - the other two are quite sing-songy).

On the other hand, Norwegian and Danish look much more alike - this is because Danish was once the dominant language of Norway for a time when Norway was under Danish rule, with Norwegian being relegated to a rustic language, spoken in the smaller villages and countryside. After Norway gained its independence from its Danish oppressors (=P) in the 19th century, a movement began to rejuvenate the native language. Eventually, and through rather artificial means in my opinion, two 'versions' of Norwegian came into being: Bokmaal (formerly known as Dano-Norwegian because of its mostly superficial differences from Danish) and Nynorsk. Nynorsk is the result of the work of a Norwegian linguist (I forget his name at the moment) who, in the interests of reconstructing a 'truer' form of Norwegian - that meaning 'a Norwegian language as might have developed had Danish not been imposed upon it' - by travelling the countryside and studying the various dialects spoken there, and from them deriving a sort of 'roots Norwegian' (as the countryside was affected by Danish much less than the cities). He went through more than one stage of Nynorsk before settling on what we have today (although I believe it's an ongoing process). Both Nynorsk and Bokmaal are official in Norway, but Bokmaal is much more widely spoken. Most books are written in Bokmaal (the word itself means 'book language').

That's the long answer to your question. Sorry if it's more than you wanted, but I get carried away when talking about things that interest me. =P Also, I hope to dispel some of this perception of American stupidity that I've noticed a lot of Europeans on here seem to have.

Take care, man.

Ryan

 

[Rivfadír]

Great explanation Mantraschism. Do you have any experience speaking any of our wonderful languages? Or is this all just from reading?

Have you ever been to Scandinavia?

 

[Mantraschism]

I've never been to Scandinavia, no. I know a little bit of Swedish and even less Icelandic; I've also self-studied a little Old Norse (and Old English). I started out being mostly interested in Norwegian. My girl (if I may call her that) is of Danish descent, and she knows a little bit of Danish, so sometimes we go back and forth, her in Danish, me usually in Swedish, but sometimes in Norwegian or Danish. Anyway, my knowledge of the history just comes from reading.

I intend to go to Scandinavia one day (I know she really wants to go to Tromsoe, NO, and who am I to argue? =P).

Thanks for your compliments man. =] \m/

Oh, and by the way, Qu Appelle, the Norwegian linguist's name was Ivar Aarsen.

Ryan

 

[Blind Guardian]

On the other hand, Norwegian and Danish look much more alike -

Funny you mentioned that,i bought a Norwegian magazine called Metalizer today after looking swiftly through it at the airport in Stockholm.It wasn´t until after about five minutes of reading i realized that it wasn´t in Norwegian but Danish

 

[Qu Appelle]

Oh, and by the way, Qu Appelle, the Norwegian linguist's name was Ivar Aarsen.

Ryan

Thanks! Thanks for all the info; I find it really helpful in understanding this.

 

[Kalabalik]

One little tiny criticism: it's Ivar Aasen

 

[Mantraschism]

Fair enough. If that was my only mistake, then I guess I'm doing all right. =]

Qu Appelle, glad I could help, and you're welcome!

 

[Defiance]

So, Qu Appelle, what made you move from "Film" to "religion"? A bit of a drastic change if I may say so .

 

[Qu Appelle]

So, Qu Appelle, what made you move from "Film" to "religion"? A bit of a drastic change if I may say so .

hahah. First of all, I'm in my '30's. So, that'll explain the timeline.

I fell into a Film Major in college; I was taking general classes my first year or so, and took an Intro to Film class in my second year because it fit into my schedule. I found that I loved it, and was really good at it, being a visual learner at heart. I found assignments like "Write 5,000 words about a picture" to be really fun. So then I graduated, but then realized that in order for me to actually work in Film in the US, I'd have to move to Hollywood. I didn't have any contacts with any of the little independent companies, etc. I had learned enough about the Film Industry itself to know that I'd rather not do that. Plus, I had gotten really interested in computers.

So, fast forward to now. Instead, I moved to Seattle, to work in the Software Industry. After a few stints of temporary work, I now have a permanent job, working on film and media software. (Mr. V, I actually use your music to test the audio portion of the software! ) It's a lot of fun, and I'm one of the few who is actually using my Film degree for something, but I had this gnawing feeling that something was 'missing'. Once I got some chronic health issues sorted away, I then got the time and energy to reflect on what that 'missing' something was.

Then, I discovered the missing. It was God. More specifically, it was an interest in God - in all types of forms, shapes, and manifestations. As a kid, my parents were agnostics, so I didn't go to a set church. So, because I was intensely curious (and because there was nothing else to do), I'd visit different churches on Sundays. I even kept a little chart of worship services, and would map out the different places. My favorite was the Greek Orthodox one; they had beautiful art, I loved the hymms in Greek, and they had the BEST after-service food. When I go to College, I dubbed it 'Church Tourism', and continued doing it. Then, I realized that not everyone does this. In fact, very few did it. I had no idea what it was, nor how to channel it into some sort of methodology for studying, etc. I didn't even necessarily believe in Christ at the time; I was more interested in the process rather than the preaching.

By the time I had started working and got settled, I was able to find a denomination that I liked that encouraged this questioning and exploration, which was the American Episcopal Church. Unlike many Christians who rediscover it as an adult, I never became 'saved' - a zealous convert who clings on to a rigid subset of the faith, and anything that challenges his new world view is WRONG. Yeah, that's not me. Ultimately, I found that I was watching religious programming at work (I have HDTV and cable!), reading things like the Book of Mormon for fun, and I came to the realization that I'd rather claw out my uterus than read yet another thrilling book about Windows Kernel Debugging. I need a change, and I need it now.

So, I've started looking into Seminaries. This really seems like the most logical choice; I looked into Comparative Religion programs, Anthropology, Archeology, and the like, but none of them really had what I was looking for. I want to study religion from the inside, not the outside.

So, that's how I got there!

 

[Vampyrian]

Disgusting. You had the benefit of having parents who didn't force you into any religion, yet you still found your own way into this madness. For an interesting read on religion, read some Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris,.. before it's too late. 'most logical choice', as soon as you jump into religion, you can kiss logic goodbye. Religion is a delusion and it's harming us as a species.

Personal opinion.

 

[Qu Appelle]

Disgusting. You had the benefit of having parents who didn't force you into any religion, yet you still found your own way into this madness. For an interesting read on religion, read some Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris,.. before it's too late. 'most logical choice', as soon as you jump into religion, you can kiss logic goodbye. Religion is a delusion and it's harming us as a species.

Personal opinion.

No worries. You are allowed to have that. And I am allowed to study it

 

[Defiance]

Well it's always interesting to study religion, but for me it's only a way of "collective thinking" and control.

It's funny because it apparently goes "backwards." What? Well, I was a Catholic until I was 15-16. Now I'm an Atheist. You were (apparently) Agnostic, and now you attend the damn Seminars (please forgive the "damn" over there, couldn't help it ). So in a way it's doing the opposite of what your parents did (I'm joking about that, but it can be applied to many people).

At least you're open-minded, I hate people that go like "ohh you should follow the way of christ or you'll burn in hell," or "fuck god follow the way of Satan."

Ahh the other day I went to my girl's house, and there were two people (a bit of an old man and a woman) that are Evangelists, and they looked at me in such a disgusting way!!!

Really, I WAS SO FUCKING PISSED OFF!!! They're saying wonders of you, but they're analysing and "eating" you with their looks. I fucking hate that. I was so mad that I actually started to go red. I had to leave because I felt that I was going to punch them. Anyway, at first I had my shirt cover (just to avoid talks/problems), but well they really pissed me off so I uncovered it and TAD DAH! Napalm Death!

Look on an Evangelist couple after seeing a yellow Scum Napalm Death Shirt: Priceless .

Fucking hypocrites, those are the people that I cannot stand at all.

 

[Thidrek]

I think it's great if people nowadays still are interested in religious issues. I don't really know what it's like in other countries but in Germany noone seems to care about it anymore. Almost everyone is an atheist or agnostic and it is just not "cool" to care for your religion. I find it nice when people, especially young ones, bethink themselves of their culture and religion is undisputible part of it. Apropos: I cannot really stand those "trve" "germanic" "barbarians" always saying that christianity sucks because the Teutons have been forced to be christians and "the Germanic religion" (which did not really exist aswell as "the Teutons") is the only right religion for all Germans. Omfg, I mean christendom has been influencing central Europe for about 1500 years now and barely anything is left of Germanic belief.

I my self am not christian, I'd call myself a pantheist which is rather relaxed since I have nothing to practice! But for me every religious site is holy, be it a church, a mosque, a buddhist temple, a sanctuary of a natural religion or whatever.

 

[tobz]

Fucking hypocrites, those are the people that I cannot stand at all.

I don't know, I think the biggest hypocrites around are those blackleather-clad gentlemen proclaiming "Hail Satan! We hate religion!"
What is the meaning of that? In my book satanism is as much a religion as any other. And all that talk about "War on Christianity!", Satanism is the same f-in religion, only difference is which divinty that's being praised...

Well, that's my opinion anyway...

 

[Qu Appelle]

I don't know, I think the biggest hypocrites around are those blackleather-clad gentlemen proclaiming "Hail Satan! We hate religion!"
What is the meaning of that? In my book satanism is as much a religion as any other. And all that talk about "War on Christianity!", Satanism is the same f-in religion, only difference is which divinty that's being praised...

Well, that's my opinion anyway...

You know, the Theological Roots of Black Metal would be a fascinating thing to research and write about....

 

[Thidrek]

Praising Satan and Odin/Woden at the same time is as fun!

 

[Qu Appelle]

Praising Satan and Odin/Woden at the same time is as fun!

What's the link between the two?

 

[Vampyrian]

I think it's great if people nowadays still are interested in religious issues. I don't really know what it's like in other countries but in Germany noone seems to care about it anymore. Almost everyone is an atheist or agnostic and it is just not "cool" to care for your religion. I find it nice when people, especially young ones, bethink themselves of their culture and religion is undisputible part of it. Apropos: I cannot really stand those "trve" "germanic" "barbarians" always saying that christianity sucks because the Teutons have been forced to be christians and "the Germanic religion" (which did not really exist aswell as "the Teutons") is the only right religion for all Germans. Omfg, I mean christendom has been influencing central Europe for about 1500 years now and barely anything is left of Germanic belief.

I my self am not christian, I'd call myself a pantheist which is rather relaxed since I have nothing to practice! But for me every religious site is holy, be it a church, a mosque, a buddhist temple, a sanctuary of a natural religion or whatever.

I'm happy people all over Europe are starting to turn to at least Agnosticism if not Atheism. Means there's still hope for humanity. Means people aren't as stupid as they once were and are questioning everything around them more and more. In science we trvst! Great, that 'religion' isn't 'cool'. I'm happy to hear that! Yay for Germany then. More and more Atheists over here as well. I love it. It's fucking 2008 anyway! Not the middle-fucking-ages. About damn time people started letting go of empty delusions.

 

[tobz]

I think religion can be quite interesting to read about, although I read about it in the same way I would any other type of folk-lore or old tales. I don't believe in it, but can still be fascinated about how many people it has / still affects to this day. I've never been a religious man, and have never believed the tales, but do sometimes wonder exactly where the ideas originate from. I recently read a very interesting book which I sadly can't remember the exact title of, but it was something like "The secret of the Dead Sea scrolls". It was about how the Vatican has tried their hardest to cover everything up about their content, and what they could possibly say that can be so harmful to them.

Oh, and where does Woden/Wotan come from? Is it the German language version or what?

Qu Appelle: If you ever get that essay written, be sure to post me when it's done. I'd love to read it.