Any good totally ITB productions?

[JeffTD]

this forum has a rotten bunch of people who have no aspirations to improve as engineers or to leave their own bubble. they're happy to settle for programmed everything, and digital everything else. I'm not saying they don't have their uses, because I use them a lot. but for a serious recording? no thanks.

I love you Ed, but you're dead wrong here.

A rotten bunch? Try the vast majority.


But seriously, everything Ed has said in this thread is dead-on. It's as frustrating and maddening as it is depressing.

 

[Mikaël-ange]

this forum has a rotten bunch of people who have no aspirations to improve as engineers or to leave their own bubble. they're happy to settle for programmed everything, and digital everything else. I'm not saying they don't have their uses, because I use them a lot. but for a serious recording? no thanks.

Once again, couldn't agree more...

 

[LBTM]

A rotten bunch? Try the vast majority.

Well, that's true, I agree, but in the end is it our fault that bands suck or guys here lack of proper equipment? The vast majority on this board can't afford to record real drums or get real amps. And in the end the final product is what you should care about. Are we supposed to be hippies and try to "get the real thing"?

 

[JeffTD]

Sorry LBTM but you're included in that vast majority and you're a VERY vocal portion of it. As nice as I want to be, your whole sample mongering, match-eq'ing mics schtick has left a very bad taste in my mouth. It's frustrating to me because you apparently think you're "on the good side" of what I'm describing but you are very clearly not.

If you can't afford to record real drums or amps then that's great - maybe you should consider another profession or to stop branding yourself as an engineer? You don't call it a studio if it's just a garage; you can't call yourself an engineer if all you do is edit and program MIDI.

The final product is one thing; the continued devaluation of good work and deterioration of album quality is a completely different topic entirely.

 

[indecizo]

If you can't afford to record real drums or amps then that's great - maybe you should consider another profession or to stop branding yourself as an engineer? You don't call it a studio if it's just a garage; you can't call yourself an engineer if all you do is edit and program MIDI.

Doesn't the sturgis make a good living out of pod tones and midi all over?

 

[RevoltStudios]

Some of us here....me....record real drums, real guitars, every time. I just can't stand this fake stuff and it's so boring to work on. I realize not everybody can hop on over to Blackbird or something like I can but there's no shame in spending hours on a good drum tone for instance, in a bedroom. At least try! The reason I believe my drum samples have been so successful is because I've been militant with REAL tones for years, specially drums. I want to aim for more than 1's and 0's on everything.

 

[egan.]

I think an important part of this is that making the most of what you have is always admirable but pretending it's comparable is dishonest. This isn't about being a snob, it's about wanting to get the most from the songs and musicians. It's not about being a hippie or using a tape machine either. It's about not having a million records with identical drum sounds that sound flat and uninteresting. Beyond that, the 500lb elephant is that it's much more difficult to get decent drum sounds yourself than it is to buy them from some Swedes or a guy with a hair gel addiction.
I'm frankly regularly left frustrated and puzzled when bands with promising demos get record deals (read: budgets) and put out the same programmed and sterile sounding recordings for their album. If this were simply a debate of home studio vs pro studio it would be a nonstarter but the reality is people with money in hand are turning out home studio sounding stuff IMO. That's far more of a concern to me as a music fan than as an engineer.

 

[JeffTD]

Doesn't the sturgis make a good living out of pod tones and midi all over?

He records real drums and doesn't use that much MIDI these days; that said, the PODfarm-aspect of his productions is something I've always taken issue with and have told him time and time again.

 

[musickey]

If you can't afford to record real drums or amps then that's great - maybe you should consider another profession or to stop branding yourself as an engineer? You don't call it a studio if it's just a garage; you can't call yourself an engineer if all you do is edit and program MIDI.

The final product is one thing; the continued devaluation of good work and deterioration of album quality is a completely different topic entirely.

agree completely

yo bros, check out my studio

 

[LBTM]

Sorry LBTM but you're included in that vast majority and you're a VERY vocal portion of it. As nice as I want to be, your whole sample mongering, match-eq'ing mics schtick has left a very bad taste in my mouth. It's frustrating to me because you apparently think you're "on the good side" of what I'm describing but you are very clearly not.

If you can't afford to record real drums or amps then that's great - maybe you should consider another profession or to stop branding yourself as an engineer? You don't call it a studio if it's just a garage; you can't call yourself an engineer if all you do is edit and program MIDI.

The final product is one thing; the continued devaluation of good work and deterioration of album quality is a completely different topic entirely.

I'm sorry, but i'm recording real drums most of the times. I usually end up replacing them (some times the shells - some times everything). Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one, so at least try to be less offensive and respect mine. I'm in the "do what sounds the best"-side and if that means replacing everything I will do it. Bands write the music, I'm doing my best to put it down on a digital format.

 

[Arsenu,]

^ *Still waiting to hear music*

If you've ever in you life heard real drums, you'll know that programmed drums will never get there. NEVER. EVER.
Iv'e done 1 album where iv'e used programmed drums, and my conclusion from this album was: Don't ever agree to work with programmed drums. EVER.

If you change the question to: "Any good totally ITB mixes/masters?" the question is way more relevant.
yeah, go on, give me shit! i'm the "bands who record at home, stay at home" guy.

 

[LBTM]

OK guys, let's end this here. Everybody has his opinion and his way to work. I agree that real drums are way better than programmed if tracked right but in my case and with the bands I record I prefer to programmed. My intention is not to start a flame war, it's totally pointless, but to express my opinion. If you're fortunate enough to record really good bands, good for you, that's not the case for me.

 

[meanmrmustad]

Guitars were recorded by POD xt, Drums were recorded on an e-kit and battery
and mixed ITB by our Andy Sneap

 

[egan.]

"bands who record at home, stay at home"

I don't think that's true anymore and it's something that often results in records that don't achieve their full potential IMO.

 

[Ermz]

I'm sorry, but i'm recording real drums most of the times. I usually end up replacing them (some times the shells - some times everything). Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one, so at least try to be less offensive and respect mine. I'm in the "do what sounds the best"-side and if that means replacing everything I will do it. Bands write the music, I'm doing my best to put it down on a digital format.

If you usually end up replacing them, it might be worth looking closer to the source - attempting to improve upon your raw results, practicing the craft of record engineering - rather than putting a band-aid on the problem. I understand that this isn't practical in all situations, across all budgets, with all bands but surely at some point there has to be a pride in achieving results yourself.

I had huge issues with raw drums when I first started, but over time throughout learning about the room effect, kit quality, kit tuning (drum tech helped here), skins, playing consistency, mic placement etc. it became much easier to keep more and more of the raw drum sounds in my productions. It's not 100% real, and I doubt it ever will be for me (in metal), as I prefer drum sounds which have been slightly augmented. There are elements of consistency and tone shaping which sample stacking provides that can't be achieved with any measure of tweaking a raw drum - but this is a far cry from outright replacing everything as a matter of standard procedure. That would essentially defeat the point of recording real drums in the first place.

This is an interesting industry, because there are very short-hand ways to get an 'impressive' sounding mix. But at the end of the day it's not really your work people are hearing. They're hearing the sound of a generation of engineers who have been spoon-fed pre-processed, ready-to-go shtick ever since they started. A generation which no longer desire to create a unique record aesthetic, but rather stay content in conforming to the bland homogeneity which represents the state of metal music today.

 

[Arsenu,]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzgfoqpxJLg

Guitars were recorded by POD xt, Drums were recorded on an e-kit and battery
and mixed ITB by our Andy Sneap

E-drums are definitely the fine line between acoustic and programmed. they aren't real, but there's a person "programming".

From what i understood back than when it was discussed, Andy didn't have much of a choice since he didn't produce the whole thing, but you bet your ass Andy knows how to balance on that fine line

 

[anotherpaul]

This is an interesting industry, because there are very short-hand ways to get an 'impressive' sounding mix. But at the end of the day it's not really your work people are hearing. They're hearing the sound of a generation of engineers who have been spoon-fed pre-processed, ready-to-go shtick ever since they started. A generation which no longer desire to create a unique record aesthetic, but rather stay content in conforming to the bland homogeneity which represents the state of metal music today.

Sad but true. It is depressing to hear how much appreciation do the generic crabcore SSD+Zombass/Trillian+Sturgis PODFarm preset mixes get from the listeners. How can an engineer be proud of such a mix?

 

[UncleBob]

Unfortunately I have to agree, the only couple things I've heard so far were that Sturgis mix (which gets extremely annoying after a minute or so) and the Biomechanical one, Biomechanical is a band I've never heard until this thread and it's pretty good, the mix is decent/passable so I can imagine how much better it would've sounded if done the "proper" way.

As good as microwave ready meals and instant cake mixes have gotten, they still don't beat the real thing done properly, ESPECIALLY if you compare them side by side.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the itb guys aren't real engineers, it probably still takes a lot of work (and understanding) to make it work.

I guess it was a bit of a dumb question to begin with, should probably just compare itb to itb productions, and the real thing to the real thing.

 

[Arsenu,]

As good as microwave ready meals and instant cake mixes have gotten, they still don't beat the real thing done properly, ESPECIALLY if you compare them side by side.

Well said, and there's no doubt about ITB productions (at least the proper ones) still require the same skills as any other production, if not more.

However i think you're missing the point, saying "i should have compared ITB to ITB" is irrelevant as music is being judged as music, and for the average listener (not an AE) it doesn't care if the drums were virtual, or recorded in outer space.

If it sounds good, it is good, and in that case i think there's a general consent that programmed drums, or even e-drums, just don't cut it.

 

[xFkx]

I'm sorry, but i'm recording real drums most of the times. I usually end up replacing them (some times the shells - some times everything). Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one, so at least try to be less offensive and respect mine. I'm in the "do what sounds the best"-side and if that means replacing everything I will do it. Bands write the music, I'm doing my best to put it down on a digital format.

boy, are you ever delusional