billy milano speaks out against Serj and Tom(anti-americans)

[Wandrail]

Point two -

Leftist politics, especially derived from socialism and class-oriented thinking, can NOT create more freedom (that is directed towards Nergal_S) These ideologies rely on forcing man into a set position in life that keeps you from achieving ANYTHING else so that those among us who are too lazy, lacking of motivation, are too stupid, or who just don't care can have a better way of life. How is that more fucking freedom?? How is it freedom for my LIFE, my AMBITION, my DESIRES to be stifled, and me forced to a sub-standard mold in the name of "equality"?? Equality equates to the absence of excellence. You cannot force anyone to achieve their maximum potential, so in creating equality, you must force others down to lower levels. I yearn for a world where every man is free, where we can go to basic principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - you cannot have that when your government stops your pursuit of happiness so that unemployed Tyrone, or Manuel, or Joe-Bob can have a nicer place to live. Equality exists in one way - Death. We all die, no matter what power we hold, no matter how much money, no matter how little, we all die. Our lives are precious to us. I do not want the blood of muslim children, I simply can face the reality that war is necessary in this world, because there will always be people who seek to gain power at the cost of others. As such, WE will choose to fight the RIGHT war - we are not conquering, we are liberating. We are not even avenging, we are defending. Not that I object totally to vengeance, but you assume incorrectly when you say that I have no compassion for those who die needlessly in war. I see it, and I think its sad that it has to be that way, but just like Hiroshima, sometimes you simply have to end it once and for all. Its their Holy War, not ours.

 

[nergal_S]

Wabdrail.. you made some good points about having freedome from goverment, and i think you are right in this point, there should be less goverment. If you read Fredrik Nitshce he says that there needs to be less people and less goverment. But still he thinks in a leftist anti relgion way. And i aggre with you about religion and a very simple and brutal for method for human beings to live and kill others. How ever, you must look at history! When did extrem muslim views start in the middle east? Last 50 years. Why? Because of America supporting extrem muslim leaders to come to power to fight of comunism. This is how Houminue of Iran came to power over the Sha, and this is how Bin Laden came to power. And it wasent the Libreal parties of America who tried to put these crazies into power, it was the right wing doing it in the name of security. Just as they are doing all this behind the scene stuff now for the cause of security. The only way i can see things better is if America and other western powers leave third world countries alone, but this will never happin because there are to much resources to take advantage of, also dont give in to the claim of security. Like going to war for security. This is exactly what will take away all your freedom. Rember 1939 When Hitler came to power and promised the German people security if they gave him all there freedom? (Sorry my english is not good, My first language is French)

 

[Furious B]

Originally posted by nergal_S
How ever, you must look at history! When did extrem muslim views start in the middle east? Last 50 years. Why? Because of America supporting extrem muslim leaders to come to power to fight of comunism.

You are right on the part about how we need to look back at history because if you look at history, you will see that the Islamic/Jewish rivalry has gone on for a longer period than just the "Last 50 years." Moreover, the reason muslims hate America IMO, is because they see much of what Israel stands for in the USA. (or vice versa, I suppose)

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Wandrail
Okay - point one:

I can see things from the Muslims' perspective, I am somewhat familiar with their religion. It calls for the death of all non-Muslims. Its black and white, its stated in the Koran. I can see, then, from their point of view, how I, as an infidel pig need to die. They do not look beyond that, it is that simple to them. More than a hundred people were just beaten to death for a fucking BEAUTY PAGEANT in the name of Allah, you tell me where that's reasonable. They took the first step, you complete fools, by launching the offensive at US, the only problem is, they're throwing stones at someone who's holding an RPG - if its fucking war you want, you want to attack my fucking country and KILL my people, then you're Goddamn right I want blood. Peace is an nice idea, but its not realistic. In these western countries we live in peace, but its false, because elsewhere in the world, there is chaos. Their cities are fucking crumbled to nothing from civil war, you have forced abortion, genocide, the descendants of Ishmael blowing up children, women, men, simply because they come from Isaac. Maybe you just aren't up to fucking speed with what is really happening in this world, but its not new, it just took a while to make its way here when our guard was down. I suppose some of you don't see a problem with that. Luckily, its not you running this country, and not you who the people just elected in a landslide.

I really don't know why I am replying since you're not going to listen, but why do you insist on judging an entire group of people by a minority of lunatics? What about the millions of Muslims are aren't trying to kill Americans? Christianity is no worse than Islam. There are verses that say non-Christians should die. Remember the Crusades? Inquisition? Witch Trials? The untold millions of others killed in the name of Christianity?

My problem isn't so much that you want vengenace, it's that you don't care who our government visits their vengeance upon. Just as long as they're brown and on the other side of the world eh?

 

[Furious B]

@ Wandrail: So far, I agree 100% with everything you have said. I think you are right on the money and have a good idea of what it's going to take in order to see this country survive. (a concept liberals can't grasp) It's time for the PC hippie agenda go the way of the dodo, like it should have after the 60's. Wandrail, you sir, rock.

 

[Furious B]

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
What about the millions of Muslims are aren't trying to kill Americans?

Yes, what about them? I have YET to hear a Muslim speak out against 911. After 911 happened, the whole Muslim community tried to put up this facade that they are the victims. I wish the Islamic community would stand and say how disgusted they are by these types of acts. But of course, they have not. Which further perpetuates my skepticism towards the contemporary Muslim community

Christianity is no worse than Islam. There are verses that say non-Christians should die. Remember the Crusades? Inquisition? Witch Trials? The untold millions of others killed in the name of Christianity?

Let's get this out in the open, my friend, it was MUSLIM extremists who attacked the US on 911 and not christians. I'm not going to disagree that the other things stated above happened weren't because of in the name of christianity, but most of them are obviously not true christians by the way they lived and what they did. The statement you just made makes you look like a lemming metal head who took Deicide's lyrics to heart. Yeah, fuck Christianity.

My problem isn't so much that you want vengenace, it's that you don't care who our government visits their vengeance upon. Just as long as they're brown and on the other side of the world eh?

You don't have a clue, do you? This isn't about vengence, it's about protecting America's freedom, sovereignty, and lives of it's citizens. I would think after 911, this war would be self explanitory, but apparently people are just suicidal.

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Furious B
Yes, what about them? I have YET to hear a Muslim speak out against 911. After 911 happened, the whole Muslim community tried to put up this facade that they are the victims. I wish the Islamic community would stand and say how disgusted they are by these types of acts. But of course, they have not. Which further perpetuates my skepticism towards the contemporary Muslim community

Where the fuck have you been? Lots of Muslims who aren't batshit crazy have said they don't approve of 9/11. If you haven't heard any Muslims speak of their disapproval of the attacks you're either living in a cave or you don't WANT to hear them.

Originally posted by Furious B
Let's get this out in the open, my friend, it was MUSLIM extremists who attacked the US on 911 and not christians. I'm not going to disagree that the other things stated above happened weren't because of in the name of christianity, but most of them are obviously not true christians by the way they lived and what they did. The statement you just made makes you look like a lemming metal head who took Deicide's lyrics to heart. Yeah, fuck Christianity.

So when Christians do bad things it's because they're not true Christians, but when Muslims do bad things it's because their religion is evil. A Christian who commits horrible acts endorsed by the Bible is not a true Christian, but a Muslim who commits horrible acts endorsed by the Koran is a true Muslim. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I decided Christianity was a load of bullshit before I was ever into metal, thanks.

Originally posted by Furious B
You don't have a clue, do you? This isn't about vengence, it's about protecting America's freedom, sovereignty, and lives of it's citizens. I would think after 911, this war would be self explanitory, but apparently people are just suicidal.

Can you explain to me how killing hundreds of innocent people is protecting America? How is taking away a good deal of our basic rights protecting America?

 

[Wandrail]

Originally posted by nergal_S
But still he thinks in a leftist anti relgion way. And i aggre with you about religion and a very simple and brutal for method for human beings to live and kill others.

I don't think religion as a whole serves this horrid purpose. Religion to me equates to ritualism, and in that I do not believe. I however am a Christian, and that is not religion to me, it is simply based on what I believe is the truth. If you do not, that is fine, I'm not concerned about anyone else. I have come to this conclusion through questioning, objectivity, and a desire to find the truth. Enough about ME - I am saying I think its ridiculous to make a blanket statement about people's beliefs like that. This is the type of hypocrisy that goes unnoticed in these circles, you're only closed minded if you aren't open to politically correct and leftist ideas, its somehow intelligent to say religion, especially Christianity should be eradicated. Really we are all saying the same damn thing, just from different sides of the fence. So everyone should stop using these 'closed-minded' 'open-minded' buzz-words and be honest with themselves, if you believe in what you say, you're 'closed-minded'. And, If you are so unsure of yourself and what you believe that you can't say that its right, because "Who are you to say? SOmeone else with a different viewpoint could be right, too.." then what is your point in believing anything?? I want to find the truth, I want to be free, I will not place my belief in any principle of idea that does not hold up to my continual questioning, that is why I am so firm in them. Not because I'm ignorant and can't see things from other perspectives. Empathy isn't fucking difficult, its just that when I use, it which is often, I find it reaffirms my OWN views.

How ever, you must look at history! When did extrem muslim views start in the middle east? Last 50 years. Why? Because of America supporting extrem muslim leaders to come to power to fight of comunism.

Our fight against communism saw us aligning with many unlikely allies. It was naive of us to think that people from a creed that calls for our own destruction would not take our weapons kindly, and with time just turn them back at us. Hopefully we learned from that, but at the time it seemed the right thing to do. We were aiding someone who had a common enemy, and we weren't looking at the Muslims' ideology, because that would have been wrong and un-PC, again, to pass that judgement when 'They needed our help'. The mistake you are making, and that alot of people make, is in thinking we can just stop policing the world. People complain when we do it, but if we didn't the UN would absolutely scream for our blood, as we sit behind our "golden walls" enjoying peace and prosperity while the rest of the world burns. Because America has prospered by removing the fetters and allowing man's ingenuity and aspirations to grow with no boundaries, the rest of the world sees us as arrogant and envies us, much the way people envy Bill Gates. He fucking worked for it. We fucking worked for it. Everyone else just doesn't see it because they're blinded by envy. I don't think we should be absolutely uninvolved in the world stage, but I do think we are too involved now, and Bush has put things in motion to pull troops out of areas of the world. We can't be totally uninvolved because we do have vested economic interests and even social interests based on trying to do what is right in other parts of the world. This is how things are, you can't have an isolationist economic system and expect to prosper in the 21st century. That is what Japan did after doing so well under a totally capitalist Reagan style system in the 80's, and their economy fell through the floor. I'm sorry this is so long :X ...

 

[Wandrail]

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
I really don't know why I am replying since you're not going to listen, but why do you insist on judging an entire group of people by a minority of lunatics? What about the millions of Muslims are aren't trying to kill Americans? Christianity is no worse than Islam. There are verses that say non-Christians should die. Remember the Crusades? Inquisition? Witch Trials? The untold millions of others killed in the name of Christianity?

My problem isn't so much that you want vengenace, it's that you don't care who our government visits their vengeance upon. Just as long as they're brown and on the other side of the world eh?

Okay, now you're making things up...if its theology we're going to do now, I am fully prepared there is no passage in the bible that states anyone needs to die for espousing non-Christian beliefs, and you cannot find one. Wars were waged thatw ere deemed just that were for the freedom of the ever-persecuted Jews, but in the days of Christ, it was the Christians who were thrown to the Lions for defying the emperor. Christ did not fight, he accepted his fate on the cross and had no desire to take a human life. Perversions of Christianity have led to horrible situations like the salem witch trials, but these are actions that have no biblical or Christian basis, they were the actions of men, and based on the fears and sickness of man. The Crusades are misconceived by and large, and the "facts" you probably lifted from black metal lyrics are not real. Many viking KINGS converted to Christianity after hearing of it, and they did change their kingdom's laws to reflect their new beliefs, but it was not Christians riding in on horseback slicing down the populace and burning the towns and telling everyone "Better believe in Christianity!" and riding off. That doesn't even make sense, Christianity is about an honest belief in something, it is absolutely against forcing anyone to do anything, because that means nothing. Without freewill and a choice to do right or wrong, what you do doesn't really have any significance, and that is almost the primary point put across in the bible. This same thing goes for the Inquisition, and hoenstly, to me, the Catholic Church is the greatest blasphemy of all time anyway, ahlf of it was made up in the middle ages to control people and gain money. However, that is not rooted in the bible or in Christianity. It is of MAN. You also ascribe to me some sort of racist traits, and I don't even know where you get that. I guess that's just your typical, brainwashed liberal knee-jerk reaction to hearing rational facts...just shout "Racist bigot homophobe" and get people to hiss and haw. Why not just start calling me names? I do so care about who vengeance is sought against, but if you think a select few people need to be brought to justice and everything is hunky-dory, you are seriously deluded. This is not even possible. I am simply understanbding the reality of the situation, and wyhile I am being exaggerated when I say 'turn the whole desert into a sheet of glass' what I mean is that when it comes down to survival, just like in WWII, sometimes the quick end saves more lives than waging a war for years in trenches.

 

[Wandrail]

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
So when Christians do bad things it's because they're not true Christians, but when Muslims do bad things it's because their religion is evil. A Christian who commits horrible acts endorsed by the Bible is not a true Christian, but a Muslim who commits horrible acts endorsed by the Koran is a true Muslim. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I decided Christianity was a load of bullshit before I was ever into metal, thanks.

Haha, another example of very vague claims. I am very familiar with both Christian, biblical, and come aspects of the muslim faith. I know firsthand that the bible does NOT endorse any such acts. That they were committed under the false name of Christianity makes me endlessly angry, because it gives people with less presence of mind (hint hint) who can't see through the facade, ammunition in their misguided arsenal. I don't think all people who say they are Muslims want to kill those who are not, but it IS one of the primary aspects of the religion they claim, whether they like it or not. Genocide and torture are not in the bible in any capacity other than to speak against them. However, these things are in the Koran. The Koran is basically like a perverted version of the bible. It is based on th ebelief that Ishmael was the legitimate son of Abraham, not Isaac, as the bible states, and in that same fashion is like a twisted mirror of what the bible teaches. Christ was not the messiah, Mohammed was, because Christ descended through Abraham and Isaac, while Mohammed descended through Ishmael's line. It is a primary aspect of this faith that vengeance be sought against the jews who falsely lay claim to the land as Isaac's line, and all others who do not take their faith. The bible is th eopposite way, while it shows the reality that God's people should not allow themselves to be assaulted and killed, meaning you must defend yourself and be strong, it also shows how tragic this is, as God and Christ do not want an "unsaved" soul to die. Better to live and have an opportunity to hear their truth and have the choice to accept it or deny it. Sorry to prattle on about this for so long, but I thought it was time for some FACT to go along with the random speculation and fabrication.

 

[Wandrail]

Originally posted by Furious B
@ Wandrail: So far, I agree 100% with everything you have said. I think you are right on the money and have a good idea of what it's going to take in order to see this country survive. (a concept liberals can't grasp) It's time for the PC hippie agenda go the way of the dodo, like it should have after the 60's. Wandrail, you sir, rock.

Its great to see real metal brothers like you and NAD! I think the concepts of freedom and the power therein should be elemental in heavy metal. Its that 'positive' aggression Tobias Sammet keeps talking about, harhar. By the way, man, I love Boondock Saints, your tagline crushes! I also wanted to say that I am not trying to spam this thread...this is just a topic I have alot to say about, and when I post three freaking novels, I am trying to condense it as much as possible.

-Eric

 

[Furious B]

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
Where the fuck have you been? Lots of Muslims who aren't batshit crazy have said they don't approve of 9/11. If you haven't heard any Muslims speak of their disapproval of the attacks you're either living in a cave or you don't WANT to hear them.

Name some. If you can back up that statement, fine. I have yet to hear of an individual or group, whom practice Islam, to speak out and say that they are taking the koran and Islam in general way out of context. So go ahead and provide proof.

So when Christians do bad things it's because they're not true Christians, but when Muslims do bad things it's because their religion is evil. A Christian who commits horrible acts endorsed by the Bible is not a true Christian, but a Muslim who commits horrible acts endorsed by the Koran is a true Muslim. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

First off, I should clarify my statement by sayingthat people of ANY religion who has to kill people in order to make their God happy, is a bullshit religion IMO. If they can practice without hurting and/or killing anyone else, I don't have a problem with it. So what I am basicaly saying is that I have no problem what so ever with contemporary Islam.

Furthermore, why must you keep bringing up christianity? This has nothing to do with christians or christianity and you keep throughing them into this. This is about Muslim extremists, not christians. When was the last time a christian drove a plane into a building? Christians have changed through out time, unlike Muslims. Yes, in biblical times, it was proper to stone homosexuals and adulterers to death, but do they do that anymore? Of course not. They have evolved with time and that is why I have a problem with Islam. Most of them are stuck in the stone age. But of course this is all about the evil Christians right?

And I decided Christianity was a load of bullshit before I was ever into metal, thanks.

Well, aren't you special?

Can you explain to me how killing hundreds of innocent people is protecting America? How is taking away a good deal of our basic rights protecting America?

I personally would only like for terrorist organizations whacked out and saddam as well. I don't feel just dropping a bomb on the middle east will solve anything. I do think though, that these people need to be taken out. Although, like Wandrail said earlier, I wouldn't feel too bad if the middle east was turned into molten glass. These people, no matter how much the US bends over backward for them, are ingrateful pricks. We could liberate the Iraqi people and make there government a superpower (e.g. Germany) and still hate us.

I agree with the last one to a certain extent. Perhaps later I'll elaborate.

 

[Sacrilicious]

Originally posted by Wandrail
there is no passage in the bible that states anyone needs to die for espousing non-Christian beliefs, and you cannot find one.

"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." Exodus 22:20

"Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images." Exodus 23:24

"But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire." Deuteronomy 7:5

"Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place." Deuteronomy 12:2-3

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you." Deuteronomy 17:2-7 (one of my personal favorites)

"That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." 2 Chronicles 15:13

And this one's my favorite:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-18

Originally posted by Wandrail
Perversions of Christianity have led to horrible situations like the salem witch trials, but these are actions that have no biblical or Christian basis, they were the actions of men, and based on the fears and sickness of man.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:27

Originally posted by Wandrail
The Crusades are misconceived by and large, and the "facts" you probably lifted from black metal lyrics are not real. Many viking KINGS converted to Christianity after hearing of it, and they did change their kingdom's laws to reflect their new beliefs, but it was not Christians riding in on horseback slicing down the populace and burning the towns and telling everyone "Better believe in Christianity!" and riding off. That doesn't even make sense, Christianity is about an honest belief in something, it is absolutely against forcing anyone to do anything, because that means nothing.

Well personally I was under the impression that the Crusades was a war waged by Christians in order to take the "Holy Land" from the Muslims, because, well, it was the "Holy Land" and not because they had any rightful claim to the land. Did I miss something here?

Originally posted by Wandrail
Without freewill and a choice to do right or wrong, what you do doesn't really have any significance, and that is almost the primary point put across in the bible. This same thing goes for the Inquisition, and hoenstly, to me, the Catholic Church is the greatest blasphemy of all time anyway, ahlf of it was made up in the middle ages to control people and gain money. However, that is not rooted in the bible or in Christianity. It is of MAN.

Again you show your biases. Horrible acts committed in the name of Christianity are due to the evil in man and his perversion of the religion, but horrible acts commited in the name of Islam are because the religion is innately evil. Why is the insane violent minority the true followers of Islam but the majority of peaceful Christians are the true followers of Christ? Do you really think the Koran is just about killing nonbelievers? Both the Koran and the Bible have their share of good and bad stuff. This isn't a hard thing to understand.

Originally posted by Wandrail
You also ascribe to me some sort of racist traits, and I don't even know where you get that. I guess that's just your typical, brainwashed liberal knee-jerk reaction to hearing rational facts...just shout "Racist bigot homophobe" and get people to hiss and haw. Why not just start calling me names?

I call em like I see em. Saying "Muslims are bad people because their religion is bad but bad Christians are only bad because they're bad people not because of their religion" shows a very heavy and illogical bias.

Originally posted by Wandrail
I do so care about who vengeance is sought against, but if you think a select few people need to be brought to justice and everything is hunky-dory, you are seriously deluded. This is not even possible. I am simply understanbding the reality of the situation, and wyhile I am being exaggerated when I say 'turn the whole desert into a sheet of glass' what I mean is that when it comes down to survival, just like in WWII, sometimes the quick end saves more lives than waging a war for years in trenches.

And on the other hand, if you seriously think the United States is ever going to win this "War on Terrorism" YOU are seriously deluded. All it's going to result in is lost freedoms and a bunch of innocent people being killed, kinda like that "war on drugs" thing.

Originally posted by Furious B
Name some. If you can back up that statement, fine. I have yet to hear of an individual or group, whom practice Islam, to speak out and say that they are taking the koran and Islam in general way out of context. So go ahead and provide proof.

http://www.m-a-t.org/
http://www.matusa.org
http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa091102a.htm
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/nineeleven.html (this one has a ton of links)

That's just from the first page of Google after searching for "Muslims against 9/11".

Originally posted by Furious B
Furthermore, why must you keep bringing up christianity? This has nothing to do with christians or christianity and you keep throughing them into this. This is about Muslim extremists, not christians. When was the last time a christian drove a plane into a building? Christians have changed through out time, unlike Muslims. Yes, in biblical times, it was proper to stone homosexuals and adulterers to death, but do they do that anymore? Of course not. They have evolved with time and that is why I have a problem with Islam. Most of them are stuck in the stone age. But of course this is all about the evil Christians right?

Christianity is relevant to this discussion. I use it as an example of a religion that has some extreme followers but on the whole is peaceful, the same as Islam. It is also useful to point out the biases of some of you people who claim that Christianity is a peaceful religion and not a violent one. Christians have done things much worse than 9/11 in the past, and although they're not nearly as bad as they have been radical fundies are still problems, killing abortion doctors and such. I would even argue that many religious leaders in our country have done as much or more harm to us as any Muslim has, unless you're only measuring harm done to our country by a body count.

Originally posted by Furious B
Well, aren't you special?

Aw I'm sorry, did it hurt when I shattered your little "lol deicide fanboy lol" theory?

Originally posted by Furious B
I personally would only like for terrorist organizations whacked out and saddam as well. I don't feel just dropping a bomb on the middle east will solve anything. I do think though, that these people need to be taken out. Although, like Wandrail said earlier, I wouldn't feel too bad if the middle east was turned into molten glass. These people, no matter how much the US bends over backward for them, are ingrateful pricks. We could liberate the Iraqi people and make there government a superpower (e.g. Germany) and still hate us.

Again, do you really honestly think we can fully wipe out terorism? How? It's not like there's a country called "Terrorland" we can take out anytime soon. It's like a "war on murder" or a "war on burglary." And did you ever think maybe some of the people living in those country value their culture and don't wish for the US to intrude upon it? Maybe you should think about why they don't like the US instead of just assuming they're "ingrateful pricks".

 

[Wandrail]

This is going to be fun... Since it is easy to extract single lines of verse from the bible and spin them, I will try to put as many of these quotes as needed into the proper light and context. The first thing to understand that this is all Old Testament, and pertaining to Judaism, not Christianity. As prophecied, Christ fulfilled "the law" taking away all of these rules as being necessary to live by. These rules are from God to the Jews, and pertain to no one BUT the Jews themselves and their society. You have to be of really simple mind to read these passages from a world long ago of short lives and ever-present persecution of the Jews (although that is still happening), where these people's societies and ideals were always on the brink of destruction from others and see them from your perspective in a house in suburban America or wherever in 2002. The Jews were not a violent or warlike people, in fact they were the meekest race, which is why the Egyptians viewed them as subhuman and born to be enslaved. Any of these laws which were harsh sounding (which are so few compared to the others which are pretty simple and actually had real value to them, even when back then they didn't have the knowledge to know about nutrition, etc) were os because it was a time when things were even more harsh, and for their society to survive, they could not have elements within it that would work against it. Again, this is not Christianity. The messiah's coming is meant to signal an end to those difficult times, when man can have a new type of life.

Originally posted by Sacrilicious
"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." Exodus 22:20

This passage is followed by one stating "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt." Therefore this does not equate to "Jihad" where the Jews are seeking to kill non-believers, this is not even an instruction to sentence to death a man who follow's another God in your society, it is God saying he will allow through divine providence one of his people who turns against him to be destroyed. The person removes themselves from him and his favor.

"Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images." Exodus 23:24

This passage is discussing to the israelites how God will lead them through the lands of their enemies. This is not talking about going next door to their neighbor's homes and doing these things. This is a world in which every different society was attacking the other, and just about all were attacking the Jews.

"But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire." Deuteronomy 7:5

Same thing as the verse before. God was leading the Jews into the land that was rightfully theirs, and wa sinhabited by seven nations all larger and more powerful than them. This was part of the instructions given to the Jews to ensure that the land would remain theirs, along with refusing to intermarry with any remaining members of these nations, etc. Same goes for the verse he quoted afterwards.

"...At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you." Deuteronomy 17:2-7 (one of my personal favorites)

This was part of a command given to the Jews for once they were in the land meant for them. The reason at that time this was necessary was that the Jews were (and are) such a small collection of people compared to other nations, and for their values and system to become corrupt from within would ensure they would be given over to their mass of enemies. This was not something done out of bloodlust, and courts were in place to judge all situations. Anyone with alot of knowledge about the Jewish society and system as established by 'the woird of God' would be able to identify all of the different rules, all designed with fairness and justice in mind, but still having to fit within the harshness of reality, especially at that time. That there need be multiple witnesses was a safeguard against false accusation, and that the accusers HAD to throw the first stones goes farther to protect the falsely accused, as few people really can pull the trigger even when an accusation is REAL, much less when its drummed up.

"That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." 2 Chronicles 15:13

This is one tiny passage from much later in The Bible after so much has happened, namely the Israelites "Judah" in actuality...a southern kingdom, turned away from God and were then overcome and conquered by Egypt, and they had come through this and had just vanquished the Cushites against all odds. The current king, Asa and the people basically had to drive out the entire element of their society that had turned them away from God and destroyed them, as they knew they would suffer that destruction again. That was the harsh reality of that time. It was necessary when everything else only acted to destroy them.

And this one's my favorite:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-18

Here is the one bit from the New testament. However, it is being taken way out of context by Mr. Sacrilicious (Forbidden Donut) These are the words of Christ. WHen Christ came, the laws of God had been taken by the Jews and added onto and turned into an impossible mess of nonsense, and Christ spoke against it. Many people thought he spoke against God's word as previously stated, rather, he was trying to bring people back to the simpler, original laws, without the man-made mess. Much of this doesn't matter, however, after the death and ressurrection, at which time the old laws are all fulfilled by the messiah's blood, and grace is granted to all mankind.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:27

I already discussed these. As the world changed enough for the messiah to come and fulfill the law, these difficult ways were no longer necessary. Through grace, anyone could be forgiven their transgressions. We're thousands of years after Leviticus when Christ arrives, the old nations and their ways are long gone. These things hardly even existed in the mind of man anymore, much less more than a thousand years later when a bunch of pilgrims started burning innocent people. in the old testament where you took that verse from, The Bible speaks against false claims, and Christ's coming ends those laws anyway, both making the sin the blood on the hands of those lighting the fires and making the accusations.

Well personally I was under the impression that the Crusades was a war waged by Christians in order to take the "Holy Land" from the Muslims, because, well, it was the "Holy Land" and not because they had any rightful claim to the land. Did I miss something here?

Well in the statement I made I only was talking about the Crusades for a sentence, then I segued into the christian expansion into the west. The Crusades obviously take place AFTER that, the Crusades saw the beginning of the Knights Templar. The Muslims, as well as other rogues were continually assaulting not only jews, but christians from europe on their way to and from israel. The Knights Templar started as a way of reclaiming the knighthood for good in the name of God by protecting these pilgrims on their journeys. This quickly led to increased fighting between them and the muslims, who would of course see them as more infidels helping the descendants of Isaac and the followers of the 'false' messiah. The Knights Templar, eventually slandered by a power mad king and churchand disbanded and KILLED, were perhaps the most legendary warriors of all time, as their wars were real, and they, in small numbers, fearlessly defeated the masses of enemies and reclaimed the Holy Land for the people who's land it had been IN THE FIRST place, as well as for the safety of all those who would go to and from that place in the future.

Again you show your biases. Horrible acts committed in the name of Christianity are due to the evil in man and his perversion of the religion, but horrible acts commited in the name of Islam are because the religion is innately evil.

Of course I'm BIASED, the only way you aren't biased is if you believe nothing. You're biased from YOUR standpoint, you just think you aren't because you aren't taking either of the sides being discussed, but from your THIRD point of view, you are biased. I believe ALL horrible acts regardless of origin are due to the imperfect nature of man. You, who obviously have only a passing knowledge of either religion, just enough to find unassociated passages that you can use in your own context to support your briefly stated opinions, simply cannot comment accurately on this. You of course can comment, but its going to be just as devoid of merit as this last outburst. At least get to know the facts behind somethiing before YOU decide to be against it. I know I do.

I call em like I see em. Saying "Muslims are bad people because their religion is bad but bad Christians are only bad because they're bad people not because of their religion" shows a very heavy and illogical bias.

That is not what I said. Again you go overboard with your illogical knee-jerk reactions. The REALITY, however, is that you cannot accurately keep comparing the two as being similar. The difference is that 9/11 is something Allah would praise, according to Mohammed's written word, while the inquisition and salem witch trials would be, and were/are being punished by God as a perversion of his word and name. The Catholic church (which is endlessly evil to me) has done it for a millenia, and finally, little by little, they are being exposed for the charlatans they are. I only hope the tim eis soon when the Vatican is empty and the gilded offering plates all run dry, and those who follow now will find their way to the truth, not that bullshit.

I also am sure there are people who are Muslim who are speaking out against 9/11, albeit realtively few. Most just kept quiet, some probably out of fear. While what their religion teaches and yields cannot be denied, if someone claims ot be a muslim but does not want the 'infidels' like me and YOU to die, I'm fine with 'em. I don't care if they want to ignore that aspect of their religion, thats' cool with me, I don't think it matters because I don't believe in Allah or Mohammed, I'm glad they ignore that aspect of it!! I simply say fuck me once, shame on you, fuck me twice, shame on ME. Meaning that if you attack me, there will be retaliation, and i'll make sure I do it right, because I have a right to live,a nd when you attempt to encroach on that, you forfeit YOUR right. That's how it works.

...LONGEST...POST...EVER...

 

[Sacrilicious]

You missed the point putting the passages into context. I only posted the passages to show you that the Bible does indeed have verses that advocate the killing of non-Christians and a so-called Christian who believes it's okay to kill non-Christians is not just pulling the idea out of his ass. It is in the Bible, and the Bible is certainly open to interpretation. Their interpretation is just as valid as yours is. Do you really think that every verse from the Koran that speaks of violence can only be interpreted in a literal sense and cannot similarly have their meanings changed when read in context? Additionally, just as Christ's ressurection makes the central message of the Bible one of peace and love and all that good stuff despite all the absolutely horrible stuff in the rest of the book, does the Koran not also have a similar overlying theme of kindness and love for your fellow man? Many Muslims and many Christians as well would say it does.

I'll consider what you said about the Crusades. I won't take your statements as fact but I personally don't know a great deal about them, so I'll concede that for now and keep your comments in mind should I ever reexamine that period in history.

Originally posted by Wandrail
Of course I'm BIASED, the only way you aren't biased is if you believe nothing. You're biased from YOUR standpoint, you just think you aren't because you aren't taking either of the sides being discussed, but from your THIRD point of view, you are biased.

Well that's true technically, but what I meant was I am personally not biased for or against either religion. You have shown that you obviously have a negative bias towards Islam. I have neither a positive or negative bias towards either religion when compared to the other.

Originally posted by Wandrail
I believe ALL horrible acts regardless of origin are due to the imperfect nature of man.

I agree.

Originally posted by Wandrail
You, who obviously have only a passing knowledge of either religion, just enough to find unassociated passages that you can use in your own context to support your briefly stated opinions, simply cannot comment accurately on this. You of course can comment, but its going to be just as devoid of merit as this last outburst. At least get to know the facts behind somethiing before YOU decide to be against it. I know I do.

I already explained my purpose in quoting those passages. I was and am very much aware of the contexts they are placed in, and while I believe a few of your explanations are really stretching it, that's not relevant to this discussion. You told me that the Bible has no verses that command the killing of non-Christians, and I showed you that it does, regardless of whatever context they are placed in. The lowest common denominator of Christianity will interpret those verses just as the lowest common denominator of Islam has interpreted similar verses in the Koran.

edit: missed the last part of that post

Originally posted by Wandrail
That is not what I said. Again you go overboard with your illogical knee-jerk reactions. The REALITY, however, is that you cannot accurately keep comparing the two as being similar. The difference is that 9/11 is something Allah would praise, according to Mohammed's written word, while the inquisition and salem witch trials would be, and were/are being punished by God as a perversion of his word and name. The Catholic church (which is endlessly evil to me) has done it for a millenia, and finally, little by little, they are being exposed for the charlatans they are. I only hope the tim eis soon when the Vatican is empty and the gilded offering plates all run dry, and those who follow now will find their way to the truth, not that bullshit.

What makes you so sure that Islam's God would praise the September 11th attacks? I provided links in my last post that show that many, many Muslims disagree with you. You base that statement only on select parts of the Koran that endorse violence against non-believers and you are doing the same thing you accused me of doing in my last post, focusing on the details and not seeing the bigger picture and the religion as a whole.

Originally posted by Wandrail
I also am sure there are people who are Muslim who are speaking out against 9/11, albeit realtively few. Most just kept quiet, some probably out of fear. While what their religion teaches and yields cannot be denied, if someone claims ot be a muslim but does not want the 'infidels' like me and YOU to die, I'm fine with 'em. I don't care if they want to ignore that aspect of their religion, thats' cool with me, I don't think it matters because I don't believe in Allah or Mohammed, I'm glad they ignore that aspect of it!!

Again I don't think it's so much "ignoring that aspect of their religion" as that Islam at large deplores acts such as that. If they're ignoring part of their religion then so is a Christian who is not following through on every single thing the Bible says.

Originally posted by Wandrail
I simply say fuck me once, shame on you, fuck me twice, shame on ME. Meaning that if you attack me, there will be retaliation, and i'll make sure I do it right, because I have a right to live,a nd when you attempt to encroach on that, you forfeit YOUR right. That's how it works.

I wouldn't call (just for an example) our actions in Afghanistan retaliation, unless your idea of retaliation is blowing up your neighbor's house because he plays his music too loud. Additionally, if you're a Christian (I've gathered that from your posts but I'm not completely sure), do you think Christ would approve of our country's actions? He never struck me as an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" kinda guy.

 

[ProphesizedDoom]

Originally posted by Wandrail
This is going to be fun... Since it is easy to extract single lines of verse from the bible and spin them, I will try to put as many of these quotes as needed into the proper light and context. The first thing to understand that this is all Old Testament, and pertaining to Judaism, not Christianity. As prophecied, Christ fulfilled "the law" taking away all of these rules as being necessary to live by. These rules are from God to the Jews, and pertain to no one BUT the Jews themselves and their society. You have to be of really simple mind to read these passages from a world long ago of short lives and ever-present persecution of the Jews (although that is still happening), where these people's societies and ideals were always on the brink of destruction from others and see them from your perspective in a house in suburban America or wherever in 2002. The Jews were not a violent or warlike people, in fact they were the meekest race, which is why the Egyptians viewed them as subhuman and born to be enslaved. Any of these laws which were harsh sounding (which are so few compared to the others which are pretty simple and actually had real value to them, even when back then they didn't have the knowledge to know about nutrition, etc) were os because it was a time when things were even more harsh, and for their society to survive, they could not have elements within it that would work against it. Again, this is not Christianity. The messiah's coming is meant to signal an end to those difficult times, when man can have a new type of life.



This passage is followed by one stating "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt." Therefore this does not equate to "Jihad" where the Jews are seeking to kill non-believers, this is not even an instruction to sentence to death a man who follow's another God in your society, it is God saying he will allow through divine providence one of his people who turns against him to be destroyed. The person removes themselves from him and his favor.



This passage is discussing to the israelites how God will lead them through the lands of their enemies. This is not talking about going next door to their neighbor's homes and doing these things. This is a world in which every different society was attacking the other, and just about all were attacking the Jews.



Same thing as the verse before. God was leading the Jews into the land that was rightfully theirs, and wa sinhabited by seven nations all larger and more powerful than them. This was part of the instructions given to the Jews to ensure that the land would remain theirs, along with refusing to intermarry with any remaining members of these nations, etc. Same goes for the verse he quoted afterwards.



This was part of a command given to the Jews for once they were in the land meant for them. The reason at that time this was necessary was that the Jews were (and are) such a small collection of people compared to other nations, and for their values and system to become corrupt from within would ensure they would be given over to their mass of enemies. This was not something done out of bloodlust, and courts were in place to judge all situations. Anyone with alot of knowledge about the Jewish society and system as established by 'the woird of God' would be able to identify all of the different rules, all designed with fairness and justice in mind, but still having to fit within the harshness of reality, especially at that time. That there need be multiple witnesses was a safeguard against false accusation, and that the accusers HAD to throw the first stones goes farther to protect the falsely accused, as few people really can pull the trigger even when an accusation is REAL, much less when its drummed up.



This is one tiny passage from much later in The Bible after so much has happened, namely the Israelites "Judah" in actuality...a southern kingdom, turned away from God and were then overcome and conquered by Egypt, and they had come through this and had just vanquished the Cushites against all odds. The current king, Asa and the people basically had to drive out the entire element of their society that had turned them away from God and destroyed them, as they knew they would suffer that destruction again. That was the harsh reality of that time. It was necessary when everything else only acted to destroy them.



Here is the one bit from the New testament. However, it is being taken way out of context by Mr. Sacrilicious (Forbidden Donut) These are the words of Christ. WHen Christ came, the laws of God had been taken by the Jews and added onto and turned into an impossible mess of nonsense, and Christ spoke against it. Many people thought he spoke against God's word as previously stated, rather, he was trying to bring people back to the simpler, original laws, without the man-made mess. Much of this doesn't matter, however, after the death and ressurrection, at which time the old laws are all fulfilled by the messiah's blood, and grace is granted to all mankind.



I already discussed these. As the world changed enough for the messiah to come and fulfill the law, these difficult ways were no longer necessary. Through grace, anyone could be forgiven their transgressions. We're thousands of years after Leviticus when Christ arrives, the old nations and their ways are long gone. These things hardly even existed in the mind of man anymore, much less more than a thousand years later when a bunch of pilgrims started burning innocent people. in the old testament where you took that verse from, The Bible speaks against false claims, and Christ's coming ends those laws anyway, both making the sin the blood on the hands of those lighting the fires and making the accusations.



Well in the statement I made I only was talking about the Crusades for a sentence, then I segued into the christian expansion into the west. The Crusades obviously take place AFTER that, the Crusades saw the beginning of the Knights Templar. The Muslims, as well as other rogues were continually assaulting not only jews, but christians from europe on their way to and from israel. The Knights Templar started as a way of reclaiming the knighthood for good in the name of God by protecting these pilgrims on their journeys. This quickly led to increased fighting between them and the muslims, who would of course see them as more infidels helping the descendants of Isaac and the followers of the 'false' messiah. The Knights Templar, eventually slandered by a power mad king and churchand disbanded and KILLED, were perhaps the most legendary warriors of all time, as their wars were real, and they, in small numbers, fearlessly defeated the masses of enemies and reclaimed the Holy Land for the people who's land it had been IN THE FIRST place, as well as for the safety of all those who would go to and from that place in the future.



Of course I'm BIASED, the only way you aren't biased is if you believe nothing. You're biased from YOUR standpoint, you just think you aren't because you aren't taking either of the sides being discussed, but from your THIRD point of view, you are biased. I believe ALL horrible acts regardless of origin are due to the imperfect nature of man. You, who obviously have only a passing knowledge of either religion, just enough to find unassociated passages that you can use in your own context to support your briefly stated opinions, simply cannot comment accurately on this. You of course can comment, but its going to be just as devoid of merit as this last outburst. At least get to know the facts behind somethiing before YOU decide to be against it. I know I do.



That is not what I said. Again you go overboard with your illogical knee-jerk reactions. The REALITY, however, is that you cannot accurately keep comparing the two as being similar. The difference is that 9/11 is something Allah would praise, according to Mohammed's written word, while the inquisition and salem witch trials would be, and were/are being punished by God as a perversion of his word and name. The Catholic church (which is endlessly evil to me) has done it for a millenia, and finally, little by little, they are being exposed for the charlatans they are. I only hope the tim eis soon when the Vatican is empty and the gilded offering plates all run dry, and those who follow now will find their way to the truth, not that bullshit.

I also am sure there are people who are Muslim who are speaking out against 9/11, albeit realtively few. Most just kept quiet, some probably out of fear. While what their religion teaches and yields cannot be denied, if someone claims ot be a muslim but does not want the 'infidels' like me and YOU to die, I'm fine with 'em. I don't care if they want to ignore that aspect of their religion, thats' cool with me, I don't think it matters because I don't believe in Allah or Mohammed, I'm glad they ignore that aspect of it!! I simply say fuck me once, shame on you, fuck me twice, shame on ME. Meaning that if you attack me, there will be retaliation, and i'll make sure I do it right, because I have a right to live,a nd when you attempt to encroach on that, you forfeit YOUR right. That's how it works.

...LONGEST...POST...EVER...

 

[Wandrail]

@Prophesized Doom - HAHAHA!!!

@Sacrilicious...I will respond later, when I have time. Rest assured I have a counter-argument. For now i'll just say that none of those verses dealt with killing non-Christians. Christianity didn't exist until the messiah, Christ, came, and when he did, his sacrifice fulfilled those old laws and created a new age where man is fully forgiven if he so chooses. There is no mention of the need for killing non-Christians, as I originally stated.

 

[FailingAcension]

Wow! This is getting pretty good!

 

[nergal_S]

Wow this has gotten out of hand, like 10 thousand word posts!! I dont like any religion weather it be Muslim Jewish Or Christian. And i think they are all equale guilty of brain washing society, and have all killed thousands if not millions of people in the name of god! If the theorys of the Jim Marss book im reading now is true the Jewish Zionists killed more people and done more harm than any other religion.

 

[ProphesizedDoom]

Originally posted by FailingAcension
Wow! This is getting pretty good!

you just read my post, didn't you?

Actually I haven't read any of this debate, I'm sur eI will once I get done reading a few books i'm stuck in.