oh... saddam... why the hell should he? he's just doing fine, he may oppress his people, but thats something any democratic goverment does too, but in a different way. In democratic countrys, opression is simply overriding the opinion of the people. Also, this would be an domestical problem, so no reason for any nation to butt in. Saddam is keeping the un-resolution fine, and he doesn't seem to have serios a-bomb programmes. Bush is trying to hide away his own domestical problems, and is possessed by the oil, lying down there. It's also kinda inconsequent, to say, that iraq needs to get bombed down, because the may have mass destruction weapons, while it's still dubious, and the usa itslef having the largest arsenal of mass destruction weapons.
billy milano speaks out against Serj and Tom(anti-americans)
- Thread starter aztattooedsean
- Start date
J.
Old Fart
J.
Old Fart
I'm talking to you.
You sound like one of those conspiracy theorists who believe that every action has an ulterior motive.
You sound like one of those conspiracy theorists who believe that every action has an ulterior motive.
i'm almost never watching cnn, i don't even know how you come to call me a cnn watcher... but the ulterior motive of bush's actions is blatant.
DEEK
Member
I'm not sure what's up with the French. They seem to always back out of any national conflict that comes up. Granted, they can put out some great metal (i.e. Heavenly, Adagio, etc.), and drink lots of wine--more power to 'em!
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
lizard
Member
good debate here, without (too much) insults.
of course we are thinking of all that oil. what the hell do you expect? after all, when the hutsis and the tutsis were massacring (sp) each other in Rwanda, we sure as hell weren't racing down there to break it up. I don't agree with Bush's seeming determination to wage war, but he isn't consulting me
as far as what Wandrail says, he is mostly right, if you look at how much we pay in foreign aid to feed others, fight disease, etc., it is incredible. but you don't even need to look that far; we in effect keep the UN in business, we pay the lion's share of the bills. so please don't judge us by just one stupid policy.
of course we are thinking of all that oil. what the hell do you expect? after all, when the hutsis and the tutsis were massacring (sp) each other in Rwanda, we sure as hell weren't racing down there to break it up. I don't agree with Bush's seeming determination to wage war, but he isn't consulting me
as far as what Wandrail says, he is mostly right, if you look at how much we pay in foreign aid to feed others, fight disease, etc., it is incredible. but you don't even need to look that far; we in effect keep the UN in business, we pay the lion's share of the bills. so please don't judge us by just one stupid policy.
digitaldemon62
My Hope the Destroyer
i just wanna say that the bible is full of self contradictions and to use it to prove a point is irrelavent...one passage will say one thing..but maybe in another book of the bible, a passage will say the complete opposite...
and this song i'm listening to me reminds me of Wandrail....ha ha...
i'm kidding...wandrail is well educated...we need more well educated metal heads out there...
and this song i'm listening to me reminds me of Wandrail....ha ha...
i'm kidding...wandrail is well educated...we need more well educated metal heads out there...
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
Talk about the same old fucking song and dance from a modern day youth who is a member of some counter-culture. You will need to elaborate on your theories a bit more before I can appropriately discredit them.
You liberals always seem to have blind spots in your vision. Germany is a pseudo-socialist state where so much of anything you make is taken from you and given to others with no say on your part (unless you are one of the lazy leeches on society soaking up the handouts) and you dare say WE'RE being fooled by thieves and murderers? Also, who the hell commands us? You're the country where its a jailable offense to say white power in public. Not that I agree with "white power", but hell, if someone wants to say it, should they be locked away? I don't need Germans lecturing me on freedom, Karl Marx' entire ideas about societyw ere so unrealistic and flawed, only deluded, pointy headed, self proclaimed "intellectuals" can honestly ascribe to such nonsense. I personally DO think too much money is taken fro me, and I am doing my part to change that, as are alot of people in this country. Its why conservatism is a burgeoning movement sweeping this country. People have been given many doses of reality of late, and the blinders are lifted. With a clearer sight, they are making the choices to lead us back to a truer sense of Freedom, and we will further prosper from it.
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
I'm not done yet...as far as all of this talk about Bush being obsessed with the oil liberals are so funny and unrealistic. What world are you living in, where you honestly have this picture in your head of Bush staying up late at night, driven by thoughts of running naked through fields of oil? Grow the hell up! Maybe you simply aren't aware of how the world WORKS, but of course we're thinking about the fucking oil, its one of the primary driving forces of the world, and if a malevolent dictator controls it, the world will suffer. Saddam already tried to STEAL it all before, he even set fire to it!!! DO any of you even know what the Gulf War was about?? Saddam is a fucking butcher, and he is always looking for a way to wrest power from everyone else, no matter the cost. This moronic point of view that "The US has the greatest arsenal of mass destruction" is so devoid of logic. Of COURSE we do!!!! We use it to defend ourselves and the rest of the world!!! You have to accept the fact that there is a perpetual race out there where new weapons technologies are always being worked on, and that is why the nations that seek to promote peace and freedom must be the ones at the fore of both development and supply. Not because we always have to use it, but because just having that keeps these terrorists in check. You can never rid yourself of these people, the reality is that there is a perpetual cold war, you just don't always know who you're fighting. It is why our countries must remain vigilant, this is the reality of this world, that peace can only be obtained through vigilance. "Walk softly and carry a big stick" simple words that speak tomes of truth.
The bottom line is that people like A Scarlet Sunset are part of this movement that is so popular in academia and the media for the last 20-30 years, where there is no wrong or right, and the only thing that is really wrong is thinking someone else is. With this 100% subjective way of thinking, one can't see the difference between a nation like the US or Britian holding a nuclear arsenal and Iraq or possibly even Al-Qaida holding one. The difference is in what you use it for, you aren't living in reality if you don't accept or acknowledge the fact that there are people who seek to do others harm in order to gain power, and that it is not a country who spends lives and money to aid to poor, sick, starving, and oppressed. Maybe it will take Ali Baba crashing a Zeppelin into the heart of Berlin to get the message across, I don't know (I'm just having a bit of fun there, since we're on the topic of everyone making uneducated assumptions about other countries, namely mine, I figured I would play along). I actually think Germany would be a great place to go, by the way...and I love Blind Guardian and Gamma Ray.
-Eric
liberals are so funny and unrealistic. What world are you living in, where you honestly have this picture in your head of Bush staying up late at night, driven by thoughts of running naked through fields of oil? Grow the hell up! Maybe you simply aren't aware of how the world WORKS, but of course we're thinking about the fucking oil, its one of the primary driving forces of the world, and if a malevolent dictator controls it, the world will suffer. Saddam already tried to STEAL it all before, he even set fire to it!!! DO any of you even know what the Gulf War was about?? Saddam is a fucking butcher, and he is always looking for a way to wrest power from everyone else, no matter the cost. This moronic point of view that "The US has the greatest arsenal of mass destruction" is so devoid of logic. Of COURSE we do!!!! We use it to defend ourselves and the rest of the world!!! You have to accept the fact that there is a perpetual race out there where new weapons technologies are always being worked on, and that is why the nations that seek to promote peace and freedom must be the ones at the fore of both development and supply. Not because we always have to use it, but because just having that keeps these terrorists in check. You can never rid yourself of these people, the reality is that there is a perpetual cold war, you just don't always know who you're fighting. It is why our countries must remain vigilant, this is the reality of this world, that peace can only be obtained through vigilance. "Walk softly and carry a big stick" simple words that speak tomes of truth. The bottom line is that people like A Scarlet Sunset are part of this movement that is so popular in academia and the media for the last 20-30 years, where there is no wrong or right, and the only thing that is really wrong is thinking someone else is. With this 100% subjective way of thinking, one can't see the difference between a nation like the US or Britian holding a nuclear arsenal and Iraq or possibly even Al-Qaida holding one. The difference is in what you use it for, you aren't living in reality if you don't accept or acknowledge the fact that there are people who seek to do others harm in order to gain power, and that it is not a country who spends lives and money to aid to poor, sick, starving, and oppressed. Maybe it will take Ali Baba crashing a Zeppelin into the heart of Berlin to get the message across, I don't know (I'm just having a bit of fun there, since we're on the topic of everyone making uneducated assumptions about other countries, namely mine, I figured I would play along). I actually think Germany would be a great place to go, by the way...and I love Blind Guardian and Gamma Ray
.-Eric
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
I disagree that the Bible is full of contradictions. It is perhaps the most complex thing in existence, and before you say that, take some theology classes or take the time to learn something about it. You would find that that whole "The Bible is full of contradictions" thing that most who say it take at face value (meaning they really have no firt hand knowledge about it one way or the other) is pretty far from the truth.
Oh, and I agree with Chuck on The Philosopher, I enjoy alot of philosophy, I like reading William Blake, but I think he was fucking delusional, most of them are. I'm not like that at all, I am just talking common sense here. I have backed up everything i've said with facts and/or logic. Philosophy is all abotu pontificating about and pondering things that can't be totally answered most of the time. It is an area where brilliant insights can be made and discovered, but its also one where people can get way too convinced of what their imaginations concoct. I think Neitchze (did I spell that right...it is very late) is an example of this...and so does Hansi Kursch!!
Oh yes, the oil should better flow into americas pocket, it would be better for us allOriginally posted by Wandrail
I'm not done yet...as far as all of this talk about Bush being obsessed with the oil
Ah, and yes... indeed, saddam tried to obtain possession of the oil, lying in kuwait by the use of military force. Isn't there a parallel to bush's acting?The USA is even the greater butcher. The USA support guerilla forces and terrorists all around the world. Examples? In 1973 the CIA helped to overthrow the allende-goverment in chile, the new goverment under pinochet slaugthered 10.000 people. The USA even supported Saddam's anticommunistic crusade, which led to mass executions of members of the communist party. The USA supported the taliban logistic, to get rid of the soviets in afghanistan. After the pro-western shah of the iran was brought down in 1979, the usa started immediatley with supporting the iraq.
This is probably the most hypocritical argument, i've ever heard. Of course the USA uses them to save the rest of the world... or... well at least them, who lick americas feet. I was talking of mass destruction weapons, which are probably the worst instrument to fight terrorists
blah, as i already said, the usa is it, who spreads poornes, sickness and opression. And ofcourse, you know, how the future is gonna develop, and how those weapons are going to be used. However, i wouldn't even care... just use those fucking nukes, bomb your world down, so that an end is made to the disease "human".
Hasn't already the first war-theoretican, Sun Tzu already asserted, that you should never narrow your enemy so much, that there is only suicide-attacks left to resist for your enemy?!Maybe it will take Ali Baba crashing a Zeppelin into the heart of Berlin to get the message across, I don't know (I'm just having a bit of fun there, since we're on the topic of everyone making uneducated assumptions about other countries, namely mine, I figured I would play along). I actually think Germany would be a great place to go, by the way...and I love Blind Guardian and Gamma Ray
I don't care about marx, i'm more into Engels' ideas, which are much more utopic, because mankind is simply to greedy and too dumb to realize that if they work not for the money but for the society, they will gain much more wealth.Originally posted by Wandrail
Talk about the same old fucking song and dance from a modern day youth who is a member of some counter-culture. You will need to elaborate on your theories a bit more before I can appropriately discredit them.
nergal_S
St. Anger around my neck.
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
Originally posted by _A_SCARLET_SUNSET_
Oh yes, the oil should better flow into americas pocket, it would be better for us all
We would never control those oil fields. They will continue to be the property of the countries in which they sit, as they are now. The US benefits financially far less from oil than does the middle east and Norway, but we are not in the business of conquering other nations and taking their resources. We are far too concerned with the UN and world opinion of us, which is negative no matter WHAT we do, to do anything but hand the oil fields right back over to the new governments of these countries. I half wish we would just to teach some people a lesson, but we won't do that. That is what we have been trying to stop Saddam from doing. There is absolutely no parallel to our actions. You, again are in a frame of mind where military action is military action, our reasons and purpose don't seem to matter to you. There are organizations, especially one in particular of Iraqi defectors who want to see a liberated Iraq and are willing to step in once Saddam is gone to fix these problems in their own country. Iraq will not become property of the US
Serious lack of reality, here...Um...hey, Hans...talking about butchering people, remember the Holocaust?
I, again, don't need Germans who still ascribe to anti-human socialist philosophy lecturing me on these matters. We of course supported all of these nations fight against the invading Soviet forces, are you saying we should have allowed them to simply take over these nations? Their people, some of whoim we were even surely suspicious of at that time, requested our help in fighting a common enemy to keep their sovereignty. That they then turn around against us only reflects poorly on the US in showing that our willingness to trust other nations and people is a bit naive. but then, those situations were gambles, that's part of life, sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two apparent evils. I think we did, and its definitely a better purpose to keep an enemy who has its sights on YOU in the end out of countries that aren't theirs, rather than just sitting back and letting it happen.
We are just about the most criticized nation, even by those of YOU who we help the most. Where would you be now if not for Reagan telling Gorbachev to "Tear down that wall" fucking ingrates. We have a global economy, every nation has an interest in the future of other nations because we are ALL effected. It is in our best interests to help other nations, but we also do it out of a moral obligation. When ethnic cleansing begins in some country that has no wealth of resources, we still go and help. No one fucking licks our feet, if anything they take our hard earned money and men and when they're done with us they spit in our faces. If we did stop helping all of these countries, and stopped our operations in other parts of the world, not only would it hurt us directly, but everyone else as well. Then we would have you same people talking about how the US is so selfish and sits behind their gold walls pretending the rest of the world doesn't exist while it burns down. Kind of like how class-obsessed unmotivated envious people see the rich. Its a no-win situation for us, so we will simply continue to do what is right and what is in our best interest, and th ebest interest of the world. I always say thats how you should operate, never listen to the quibbling masses, just do what you know is right.You totally missed my point. The terrorists are always looking to up the ante. We DO have a massive arsenal of mass destruction, and what does it do? It sits there, while we hope we never have to use it. Its a scarecrow, but a scarecrow that will kill you if you take it that far. A terrorist with just one nuke is more of a threat than the US or Britain with an arsenal, because ours aren't going to be put to use until we are pushed that far. Terrorists have no qualms about taking lives, even their own. How can you possibly not see the difference betweena nation that seeks to preserve life and people who seek to destroy it holding nuclear weapons.
And here we see it, the entire worldview comes out - humanity is a disease to you. You probably think we should all die and that the world should be covered with greenery, etc, etc...what a joke. Anyone who thinks this way should have some fucking integrity and jump off a building, lead by example
. We won't use nukes unless we are forced to to preserve our own lives and yours. We spread poorness and oppression? This coming from a member of the race who failed at taking over the world what...twice? Give me a fucking break...I'm totally aware of that, and that's basically what I'm saying. Is that not what happened in World War 2? We had no choice but to end things the way we did, it would never have stopped. The harshness of reality is that these situations exist, and we, as a nation who seeks to promote freedom and prosperity, along with our allies, are the ones who must be at the forefront of production and development of new and more powerful weapons, remaining ever vigilant so that these types of people know that they won't win. Even if they are willing to die themselves with a nuke strapped to their backs, running into a US or UK city, it won't happen if they know the cost will be the annihilation of their cause. It is that cause which gives them their pseudo-religious furvor, thats why they give their lives to it, they want to protect it with their lives, not destroy it. It is an endless game of checkmate, and we always have to have the upper hand. In this fashion, it will stay in checkmate, and we won't have to drop a bomb to take their last piece. With enough time, if we all remain vigilant, and allow no quarter to these types of people and acts of terrorism, they will become subjugated to the point that things will become easier. Never gone, but it will dissipate.
-Eric
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
Have you no sense of pride or freedom? From my ancestors cry of "Bona na Croin" to my country's constitution, I believe no man has an earthly master, and just the same, no man should be a slave to society. We each can have power over our lives through reaping the rewards of our own work, and we can all learn by suffering the consequences ofour actions. Working for society denies the fundamental element of man that is individualism. I fucking don't want to work for YOU. That's YOUR job, you lazy bastard. This "utopia" you speak of should be tried in your country, I think. It would certainly not last, because people would quickly become dissatisfied with life, bound by these fetters. What incentive is their for making the personal sacrifice of time and life to work on things like medicine and technology. So much of this comes from people obeying their personal drive and ideas, their inspiration. When you're stuck in one house with one income and one purpose for your life, born into a mold, just a cog in a machine, what's the fucking point ofliving? Oh yeah, you don;t necessarily believe that men have an inalienable right to their lives, I'm sure. Only society has a right to exist, and if your life presents a problem, I'm sure it must end to benefit society. Hello, Hitler!
-Eric
Hm, what do you mean with "we"?! The USA as an country itself or the american oil companies?! It should be quite clear, i think, that american oil companies are very interested in gaining control over the iraqi oil fields. So, there doesn't seem to be a problem with the United Nations and the rest of the world's opinion concerning the USA. And, for sure there is something called an OPPOSITION also in the iraq.Originally posted by Wandrail
We would never control those oil fields. They will continue to be the property of the countries in which they sit, as they are now. The US benefits financially far less from oil than does the middle east and Norway, but we are not in the business of conquering other nations and taking their resources. We are far too concerned with the UN and world opinion of us, which is negative no matter WHAT we do, to do anything but hand the oil fields right back over to the new governments of these countries. I half wish we would just to teach some people a lesson, but we won't do that. That is what we have been trying to stop Saddam from doing. There is absolutely no parallel to our actions. You, again are in a frame of mind where military action is military action, our reasons and purpose don't seem to matter to you. There are organizations, especially one in particular of Iraqi defectors who want to see a liberated Iraq and are willing to step in once Saddam is gone to fix these problems in their own country. Iraq will not become property of the US
Yes, i remember the holocaust (ah, btw, remember how your nation has treated the natives?!), and exactly that's why i'm so fed up with america's doing. Oh yes, you supported the rest of the world in fighting against the evil commies. As seen in chile, where no soviet invasion took place. Also seen in vietnam, where also no soviet invasion took place. Well, i don't think there we are again, hypocrisy. You seem to be very credent, if you really believe, that it's pure providence and helpfulness which made the usa intervent in so many conflicts all around the world. It is indeed mainly self-interest. It's your weapon-industry which profits from the wars, and war has also a very diverting effect. I talk of diverting of inner problems.Um...hey, Hans...talking about butchering people, remember the Holocaust?
Even if you helped germany so damn much, it doesn't give you the right to be uncritisized. Of course it is in your interest to help some other nations, but NEVER, NEVER believe that it's an act of pure goodwill. We're living in an evil place, where everyone tries to get his pockets as full as he can. And, yes, never listen to the quibbling masses, just make your own way. At least one point, where we argree.
It's a scarecrow which may kill yourself when you use it. But however, you cannot know how the world will develope. An arsenal of nukes is always a big risk, no matter in whose hands.
Yes, humanity is the worst failure of evolution. But it's also an irreversible failure. Wanna know, why i haven't commited suicide already!? Well, you need to have tried it for yourself, because maybe you won't believe it, but every human has something like a self-preservation-drive, and you need almost an incredible amount of will, to pass it by, it's like another, uncontrollable force taking control over you. Hitler was the only german trying to take over the world, if you are meaning world war one by mentioning "twice", let me tell you, that that one was about something different.And here we see it, the entire worldview comes out - humanity is a disease to you. You probably think we should all die and that the world should be covered with greenery, etc, etc...what a joke. Anyone who thinks this way should have some fucking integrity and jump off a building, lead by example
Well, i don't say, that america always made nothing but failures. I appreciate, that america, the uk, france and russia freed us from hitler and his ridicoulus views. But even in world war 2, america made one, always closemouthed rascality. The nuking of two japanese cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. An act, which wasn't longer war-deciding (@the germans in here: any better translations for "kriegsentscheidend"?). Amercia would have won the pacific-campaign anyway.
Similar threads
