Black Sabbath - I don't get it

[Life Sucks]

Sure, I think they are good. And sure, they were the first metal band. However, they are FAR from being a favorite band of mine, and they are FAR from the most talented metal band ever, both in compositional ability and technical musical proficiency. So, can someone please explain to me how so many people think that Black Sabbath are the best metal band that ever existed. And don't say "because they were the first." Sure, it's a fact that they were the first, but I wanna hear concrete evidence that they were the best, because I just don't see it.

*prepares for an onslaught of flames*

 

[AchrisK]

I don't know. But I think you can't be used to modern metal (even thinking of 80's thrash and newer) and expecting to hear that kind of metal.

It may just be that you don't like it that much. But for many people their early stuff was just magical. It had a quality that was just very special. The production, songwriting, vocals, mood, and whatever else was just perfect (a fact that may have come as a surprise even to the band).

Hard to explain, but if you don't like it, then that's ok.

 

[Imolarot]

I think them being first is a huge factor in it, They broke a couple barriers and helped metal become what it is and they are an influence to many but I do not see any concrete evidence as to why they are the best.

 

[cookiecutter]

I agree with you Life Sucks. What always irritates me is when people say "Black Sabbath already wrote every cool riff in metal" which is just absurd.

 

[Imolarot]

But for many people their early stuff was just magical. It had a quality that was just very special. The production, songwriting, vocals, mood, and whatever else was just perfect (a fact that may have come as a surprise even to the band).

Not denying that at all. I guess it comes down to personnel taste and how you feel they impacted metal. This is going to be an interesting thread.

As I keep thinking about I would probably answer Black Sabbath as well to being the best metal band without getting too deep into it.

 

[unknown]

I never really got into Black Sabbath

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Sure, I think they are good. And sure, they were the first metal band. However, they are FAR from being a favorite band of mine, and they are FAR from the most talented metal band ever, both in compositional ability and technical musical proficiency. So, can someone please explain to me how so many people think that Black Sabbath are the best metal band that ever existed. And don't say "because they were the first." Sure, it's a fact that they were the first, but I wanna hear concrete evidence that they were the best, because I just don't see it.

*prepares for an onslaught of flames*

It depends what criteria you use - Black Sabbath is a better band than the ones that came after in the sense that Alexander Graham Bell is a better inventor than the guy who came up with cell phones. One came up with everything, the other just made some modifications to the previous one's efforts. I would ask you to go into detail as to how Black Sabbath's "compositional ability" compares to other metal bands, since you state their deficiency in this area so matter-of-factly. As for "technical musical proficiency" - who gives a shit? Is metal a guitar playing contest?

Just smoke a bowl and listen to the s/t, that will probably help you figure it out.

 

[Life Sucks]

What always irritates me is when people say "Black Sabbath already wrote every cool riff in metal" which is just absurd.

Yes! It very much irritates me when people say that.

I think them being first is a huge factor in it, They broke a couple barriers and helped metal become what it is and they are an influence to many but I do not see any concrete evidence as to why they are the best.

Yes, the fact that they were first is probably like 85% of it. Especially considering Toni Iommi was really only an average guitarist and songwriter. He did have a creative idea in taking rock and "stepping it up a notch" making it harder and darker. They broke some barriers. But still. The difference between Black Sabbath and Zeppelin isn't much bigger than the difference between NWOBHM and thrash, or thrash and death metal or black metal. Barriers were being broken within metal itself, with each successive "step up" in extremity.

 

[ohiogrinder]

I love Sabbath, but what I can't stand is people who actually HATE them. i.e., my friend Scott.

 

[tagradh]

My dad has them on all the time, I've seen them live. I can't stand them.

 

[Life Sucks]

I love Sabbath, but what I can't stand is people who actually HATE them. i.e., my friend Scott.

I don't hate them. But I hate it when people say that Sabbath were far better than every other metal band. And tons of people seem to think that.

 

[Life Sucks]

It depends what criteria you use - Black Sabbath is a better band than the ones that came after in the sense that Alexander Graham Bell is a better inventor than the guy who came up with cell phones. One came up with everything, the other just made some modifications to the previous one's efforts. I would ask you to go into detail as to how Black Sabbath's "compositional ability" compares to other metal bands, since you state their deficiency in this area so matter-of-factly. As for "technical musical proficiency" - who gives a shit? Is metal a guitar playing contest?

Just smoke a bowl and listen to the s/t, that will probably help you figure it out.

Again, I think that the kind of metal that Black Sabbath played is about as different from the hardest rock at the time than thrash is from NWOBHM or pure death metal is from pure thrash. It just happened to be that the line that Sabbath crossed with their sound was from hard rock to light rock-ish metal. In terms of compositional ability: the vast majority of Sabbath riffs are very simple, and the arrangements are very rock-ish (verse, chorus....).

That all being said, I want to make it clear again that I do like Sabbath. I just don't see them as being close to the best metal band ever. They were innovators in that they to the extremity of music up a notch in the evolution of extreme music.

 

[J.]

They were innovators in that they to the extremity of music up a notch in the evolution of extreme music.

And that in turn makes them essential, or at least the first six albums, which are nothing short of genuine masterpieces. The best? Perhaps. Ask all those musicians whose music you listen to daily, and the majority would name check Sabbath as an influence.

Foolish is the the man who denies Sabbath's place among metal's elite.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

Foolish is the the man who denies Sabbath's place among metal's elite.

Metal Gods, you mean.

 

[AchrisK]

That all being said, I want to make it clear again that I do like Sabbath. I just don't see them as being close to the best metal band ever. They were innovators in that they to the extremity of music up a notch in the evolution of extreme music.

The fact is, anyone who says they were/are the best metal band ever is really making a statement of opinion, so it should be taken as such. They may or may not mean it as opinion, but that's what it is. So then YOU can take those opinions as you should every other opinion, as opinions.

Maybe your problem is that you are feeling inferior because you don't seem to get what so many other people do.

I do think Sabbath was extra special, and I don't know why. But listening to War Pigs or The Wizard or many other of their tunes just verifies to me that they crafted some amazing and unique moods/tunes. I was going to say that maybe being there closer to the time they came out (I started listening to them in the early 80's, before thrash had really hit the scene) had something to do with it. But maybe not, because my 13 year old son loves them.

 

[NinjaGeek]

They were the first and their music is awesome. The best ever? No. But then again I don't really think any band is deserving of that title.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Again, I think that the kind of metal that Black Sabbath played is about as different from the hardest rock at the time than thrash is from NWOBHM or pure death metal is from pure thrash. It just happened to be that the line that Sabbath crossed with their sound was from hard rock to light rock-ish metal. In terms of compositional ability: the vast majority of Sabbath riffs are very simple, and the arrangements are very rock-ish (verse, chorus....).

The difference created by Sabbath is more significant than that; they were the first to create a certain combination of sounds and themes, everything after that in metal has generally been a development of that combination.

Also, I think it is overly simplistic to characterize metal as a linear progression through harder and harder sounding music.

Furthermore, I fail to see how simple riffs and structure are inherent indicators of inferior compositional ability. Metal isn't a guitar playing contest, and it isn't a who can write the most complicated song contest either.

 

[Life Sucks]

The fact is, anyone who says they were/are the best metal band ever is really making a statement of opinion, so it should be taken as such. They may or may not mean it as opinion, but that's what it is. So then YOU can take those opinions as you should every other opinion, as opinions.

Maybe your problem is that you are feeling inferior because you don't seem to get what so many other people do.

I do think Sabbath was extra special, and I don't know why. But listening to War Pigs or The Wizard or many other of their tunes just verifies to me that they crafted some amazing and unique moods/tunes. I was going to say that maybe being there closer to the time they came out (I started listening to them in the early 80's, before thrash had really hit the scene) had something to do with it. But maybe not, because my 13 year old son loves them.

Hmm. I'm 30 years old, and grew up with thrash. When I was 12/13, I thought that Megadeth, Testament, and Metallica were the best, though I no longer feel that way, since better bands have come along since (a lot of European death metal bands being among them). I don't feel inferior for not viewing Sabbath as the greatest metal band of all time; I merely want to know what makes so many people here think that they are. I've been playing guitar since I was 12, and know A LOT about music theory, having studied it extensively. I can honestly say from a musician's standpoint, that Black Sabbath is not ahead of the best metal bands.

 

[Demilich]

Simple answer:
When I listen to them today, they sound better to me than 99.9% of anything else I own/listen to/download/check out/whatever.

 

[Ender Rises]

Metal Gods, you mean.

This man knows.


I think they're awesome, but not the best ever. They invented it, they did some really great stuff with it, but there are others out there who did it much better. stuff but not the very best.