Black Sabbath - I don't get it

[AchrisK]

Hmm. I'm 30 years old, and grew up with thrash. When I was 12/13, I thought that Megadeth, Testament, and Metallica were the best, though I no longer feel that way, since better bands have come along since (a lot of European death metal bands being among them). I don't feel inferior for not viewing Sabbath as the greatest metal band of all time; I merely want to know what makes so many people here think that they are. I've been playing guitar since I was 12, and know A LOT about music theory, having studied it extensively. I can honestly say from a musician's standpoint, that Black Sabbath is not ahead of the best metal bands.

But what does "ahead" mean? Music is more than a mathematical arrangement of tones. Sabbath created art that moves many many people deeply. It's something that no musician can achieve purely from technically proficiency or musical theory. Do you understand that? Do you only listen to music on a technical level? If so, THAT is what you're missing.

 

[Life Sucks]

The difference created by Sabbath is more significant than that; they were the first to create a certain combination of sounds and themes, everything after that in metal has generally been a development of that combination.

What is this "combination of sounds and themes?" Most Sabbath songs still were based in the panatonic blues scale, just like hard rock. And their music also wasn't any faster than hard rock. Sure, they explored occult and political themes in some of their songs, but so did some hard rock bands at the time. They still had plenty of songs about women. In fact, they have many songs that I would consider hard rock, and not metal, though songs such as Into the Void, Children of the Grave, and War Pigs are undeniably metal.

 

[Life Sucks]

But what does "ahead" mean? Music is more than a mathematical arrangement of tones. Sabbath created art that moves many many people deeply. It's something that no musician can achieve purely from technically proficiency or musical theory. Do you understand that? Do you only listen to music on a technical level? If so, THAT is what you're missing.

No, I don't listen to metal just for technicality. The music of bands like Deathspell Omega, Mourning Beloveth, Primordial, Abyssic Hate, etc. moves me. Black Sabbath, though I like them, do not strike a chord in me. To my ears it's like heavy rock n roll, and lacks any true emotion for the most part.

 

[hibernal_dream]

Black Sabbath was still heavily grounded in blues music as was all rock music of the time. The reason I don't like them all that much is because i'm not a huge blues fan. But yes, they are important and yes, they are talented.

 

[Life Sucks]

Black Sabbath was still heavily grounded in blues music as was all rock music of the time. The reason I don't like them all that much is because i'm not a huge blues fan. But yes, they are important and yes, they are talented.

Exactly. I like Sabbath, but they are nowhere near a favorite of mine, largely because they are so heavily blues influenced. I don't like rock or hard rock, because it is basically modernized blues.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

What is this "combination of sounds and themes?"

Cynical, depressive, romanticized occult, morbid etc. themes combined with "heavy", oppressive, aggressive, contemplative etc. sounds. Tritone + "Satan's sitting there, he's smiling." The general basis of metal.

Most Sabbath songs still were based in the panatonic blues scale, just like hard rock. And their music also wasn't any faster than hard rock. Sure, they explored occult and political themes in some of their songs, but so did some hard rock bands at the time. They still had plenty of songs about women. In fact, they have many songs that I would consider hard rock, and not metal, though songs such as Into the Void, Children of the Grave, and War Pigs are undeniably metal.

Sabbath were the first band to put the sounds and themes together. If you are having that hard of a time telling the difference between Sabbath and Zeppelin then I suggest you go do some extensive listening. And what does being "faster than hard rock" have to do with anything? Are you sure you just don't like music that isn't technically and compositionally complex, something of a musician's bias if you will?

 

[Matt]

They're not my fav band either, but they were one of the first bands I ever listened to, so they got me into metal. Also, they wrote some fucking great songs, and some fucking ace albums. I prefer bands like Zeppelin and Purple over them, but still I love em.

 

[Life Sucks]

Cynical, depressive, romanticized occult, morbid etc. themes combined with "heavy", oppressive, aggressive, contemplative etc. sounds. Tritone + "Satan's sitting there, he's smiling." The general basis of metal.


Sabbath were the first band to put the sounds and themes together. If you are having that hard of a time telling the difference between Sabbath and Zeppelin then I suggest you go do some extensive listening. And what does being "faster than hard rock" have to do with anything? Are you sure you just don't like music that isn't technically and compositionally complex, something of a musician's bias if you will?

Oh, I can tell the difference between Sabbath and Zeppelin. Zeppelin is pure rock - lighter, blues based upbeat music where women and sex are the sole lyrical focus. Most of Sabbath's songs are darker (both musically and lyrically) and heavier. Most of Sabbath's songs are metal, whereas almost none of Zeppelin's songs are. I don't only like technically complex music. For instance, I hate Suck Theater, but love Darkthrone. And I never said I don't like Sabbath. I do like them, but simply feel that they aren't the best metal band of all time.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Zeppelin I mention as an example of a contemporary hard rock band - a genre which you seem to feel was not significantly different from what Black Sabbath was doing at the time. The significance lies in the fact that no band before combined the sounds and themes of metal in the way Black Sabbath did, making the progression they made much more notable than the evolution of (say) death metal out of thrash.

 

[Ender Rises]

Why is it that people obsess over lyrical themes? Lyrical themes can help define a genre but do not make or break said genre. Opeth has songs about women, I.E. Face of Melinda and Harvest, and I'm sure there are plenty of metal songs about sex.

 

[Dee Snarl]

their early stuff was just magical. It had a quality that was just very special. The production, songwriting, vocals, mood, and whatever else was just perfect

Well said. Obviously they're not the most technical or whatever band, but in my humble opinion they are the best metal band ever, and the best rock band ever, after the Beatles. I do give historical importance a lot of credence, but then my #3 is Opeth, so what are you gonna do??

 

[CF87]

Sure, I think they are good. And sure, they were the first metal band. However, they are FAR from being a favorite band of mine, and they are FAR from the most talented metal band ever, both in compositional ability and technical musical proficiency.

Technical musical proficiency has nothing to do with music skill or talent. Anyone can sit around and be a technical guitarist or musician, but can they or could they have wrote original music or the music that black sabbath wrote not really. I think for the most part no metal bands maybe a few are really up there in terms of writing and playing music. Tony Iommi is better than any 'metal guitarist' and is a genuine guitarist and guitarist like him are rare.

 

[audiophileguy]

i feel sorry for you

 

[Vacant_Planets]

Exactly. I like Sabbath, but they are nowhere near a favorite of mine, largely because they are so heavily blues influenced. I don't like rock or hard rock, because it is basically modernized blues.

Completely agree. Though I don't like them at all, and this is why.

"Anyone can sit around and be a technical guitarist or musician" - False. And rather a song is catchy or not is an opinion.

 

[Hatebreeder]

It is stupid to deny the influence they had or the talent they had for writing songs, but I think their relevance ended with the 70s. Once Ozzy realized people liked him and no matter what he did would be heralded as original and amazing, Black Sabbath died.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

Sure, I think they are good. And sure, they were the first metal band. However, they are FAR from being a favorite band of mine, and they are FAR from the most talented metal band ever, both in compositional ability and technical musical proficiency. So, can someone please explain to me how so many people think that Black Sabbath are the best metal band that ever existed. And don't say "because they were the first." Sure, it's a fact that they were the first, but I wanna hear concrete evidence that they were the best, because I just don't see it.

*prepares for an onslaught of flames*

i havent read anything else in this thread besides your initial post, mainly because i dont have time right now, but ill say that i agree with you 100% because theyve got to be one of the most boring bands ever.

 

[Vacant_Planets]

I think that's a good point, by the late 70s other bands emerged victors over BS.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Sabbath's only important era was up to 1975, after that the main problem was the realization that yes, you can do too many drugs. They have had solid moments since then although nothing comparing to their classic era, but what they did during those first years surpasses most bands of the last half century in terms of influence, relevance and historical importance.

 

[Rabid Headbanger]

No, the downfall of sabbath was cocaine.

 

[AgoliantLives]

I've noticed the only metal bands many people listen to who think Sabbath is the best are Pantera, Megadeth, and Metallica. In other words, they only listen to the tip of the metal iceberg.

I don't see posters on serious metal forums claiming Sabbath or any metal band to be the best because such claims are nonsense.

Cynical, depressive, romanticized occult, morbid etc. themes combined with "heavy", oppressive, aggressive, contemplative etc. sounds. Tritone + "Satan's sitting there, he's smiling." The general basis of metal.

Black metal owns Sabbath in this regard.