chat, feelings, and random discussion thread

[Taliesin]

I just found your remark regarding the fact that your use of English was criticised (or rather mocked) by a native speaker of that language totally ridiculous.

I think criticism is a lot easier to take when you feel the other person is on the same level, as in, they can speak another language than their own. When someone fluent only in english mocks my english spelling, I feel a little urge to say "If you dont like my english, we can continue in german or french!", you see?
Also, I dont see how this reputation has anything to do with my alleged "anti-americanism". Im pretty anti-american on certain issues, but I like to believe my attitude is different from the general "omfg I hate dem americans!!" which has become so popular lately. You're free to correct from wrong, as ever.
We can make a thread with a vote for our american friends to see how bi- or tri-lingual they really are and if in the end I have to change my opinion, if you want. Until then, they will keep their reputation on this. Yes that's prejudice, and yes Im comfortable with that.

 

[Kovenant84]

Well, as an example from the US, I guess I would support Tale's prejudice on this one. Not as in 'hey, that's great', but rather 'Hey, je ne parle pas francais.'

~kov. (apologies on the lack of accents. and yes, if there's mistakes I did it from my wonderful three years of high school french.)

 

[hyena]

Taking pride in being bilingual is quite blasé, in my humble opinion.
I like languages, I think I am proficient in English, and my French is ok. I even studied a bit of Russian back in the day. I support the study of both classical and modern languages, since I believe that a thorough knowldege of etimologies and structures helps to understand the structure of the world. If I had children, I would try to get them interested in languages. I will probably look for like-minded people when forming attachments of any kind, because the interplay between fact and verbal representation is actually one of my major interests and it also touches me emotionally.
However, one must recognize that personal taste does not correspond to some form of universal truth. I have the same level of interest and even stronger intensity of feelings where music is concerned, and I have difficulties relating with people who do not care about music at all, but I am long past the phase of life where I would call them "insensitive". They just do not have my taste, and while this might be a cause of total exclusion from my proximity if i have a choice, I do not believe that such people are inferior to me.
Languages are important first and foremost because they allow people to communicate, in the way that schooling is important first and foremost because it teaches people essential skills for interacting with others (reading, writing, counting) and specific skills in order to become a productive member of society. Then there is the aesthetical-general knowledge factor, which I explained above.
If someone speaks a language that is universally understood, the only thing I can deduce from their unwillingness to learn another one is that they do not share my aesthetical tastes, and it's not such a big deal after all.

 

[Taliesin]

I dont see how being interested in a language is a question of taste. Learning a language is first of all a question of talent. If someone is talented, he'll have more success than others and be more motivated to go on, which was probably the case for me. But after***ds, learning a language is a lot of hard work, first with grammar and vocabulary and later just with practice.
Im sure wou'll agree most people are in some way proud of what they are or proud of what they've accomplished and the languages I speak fluently are 2 of my accomplishments, 2 piles of a lot of hard work so yea, Im proud of that. More than that, I think they're a sign of interest and respect, after all they show that I want to speak the language they speak. It is in the end work I take from them and put on my shoulders, since I dont oblige anyone who wants to talk to me to speak my language, but I can speak theirs. And in the end, the fact that most americans are uni-lingual can be interpreted as a sign of disrespect, maybe not from the population, but in the end from the government or the department of education. Somewhere, someone didnt deem it a high priority for americans to learn any other language, that I personally see along the lines of "everyone else already speaks english, so why should we bother?"
That's not the whole story, I know, but maybe it helps to understand my feelings with criticism like I mentioned before.

 

[plintus]

We can make a thread with a vote for our american friends to see how bi- or tri-lingual they really are and if in the end I have to change my opinion, if you want. Until then, they will keep their reputation on this. Yes that's prejudice, and yes Im comfortable with that.

I wonder how many US "germans" actually speak any German.

I speak 3 languages and understand 2 more. And a sign language [very limited though]. So, lemme use sign language right here:

 

[Taliesin]

You must be so happy to be a positive example for once. Congratulations

 

[Kovenant84]

Well, the tendency here in the US (at least in my experience) is to require about three years of another language. Most people I know tend to take spanish, and tend to butcher it. Also, the uni-lingual nature of most of the US might be indicative of a common trait, but I'm not necssarily sure it's haughtiness, though that may factor in. While many people are taking the time to learn spanish nowadays, because of the rise in its use throughout the states, most other languages will languish, because (from a typical US p.o.v.) "Why bother? They already know my language, and we can communicate. Why make more work for me?"

But I agree that there is a certain amount of talent and natrural ability required for it. I personally suck at learning other languages, and so I don't enjoy it and don't have any motivation to. My brother, on the other hand, is the more literary one in general, and has been taking latin and greek (ancient) for some years now. I don't necessarily think he's better than me, mostly because I've yet to see him meet someone he could talk to with it

~kov.

 

[plintus]

Positive?

Nah - superior

 

[Taliesin]

To the americans' defense (yes, yes..), the US cover a surface half as wide and half as large as europe, but everyone only ever speaks anything but english, so if they dont want to subject themselves to regular 6000km flights to europe, there is significantly less use for foreign languages in the US than in europe. Still, I stick to my points (until proven stupid )

 

[Kovenant84]

To be quite honest, I'm not sure I remember your original point, as we seem to be agreeing. I think I'm gonna have to do some back-reading

Also, I was merely stating that there is at least a token effort to force another language on children by the educational system, but I often wonder how many of the people around me I could actually classify as non-lingual. Sometimes it's a very scary thought.

~kov.

 

[wildfyr]

Since the issue of moderation has reared its ugly head again perhaps the first paragraph of this post http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/dark-tranquillity/76659-hey-rahvin.html#post1329840 should be re-read, or read for the first time if such is the case. Read it twice if you have to or maybe between the lines, and then form your own opinions (conclusions?).

 

[Taliesin]

Im not sure if this is direct to***ds me, but since I did criticise rahvin's moderation once, Id like to say that Im not unhappy with the job he does. With him being the mod, I just wish he'd be more diplomatic and more distant/objective sometimes.
I dont think the board is at a point where harsh moderation is needed, so I think for now his course is pretty solid.

 

[Lina]

Yikes, all this for what I thought would simply be an amusing thought. I didn't point out the mistake because I'm uptight about spelling (I am, but not directed to***d those who speak English as a second language), but rather because I thought it was an amusing visual: a gun/baton on the beltloop and a big puffy chef's hat on the head.

That said, I agree with hyena's assessment that it comes down to interest in languages and Kov and Tal's assessment that it also comes down to talent. But Tal seems to associate an interest in languages with an interest in other cultures, and while that may be true to a certain extent, I presume there are a lot of people like me who are very interested in other cultures (I'm pretty sure I drove rahvin crazy with my constant questions when in Italy) and who enjoy traveling and who stay abreast of geopolitical issues but who are absolutely pathetic at memorizing new vocabulary and who lack the interest in language itself to persevere, especially when they're not immersed in the new language and have no social or financial need to speak it.

I didn't say anything particularly profound there, but since I started this whole mess, I wanted to weigh in.

p.s. Why the fuck is "w-a-r" banned now? Is this another one of Deron's bright ideas?

 

[Taliesin]

Yea I guess it was just a bad chain reaction with me being pretty tense and stressed lately, with marduk misunderstanding me where he can and reading my posts in the worst possible light and rahvin's humour I was allergic to under the circumstances. In about 2 weeks it'll all be over, I'll try to control myself until then, so things can go back to beautiful in no time

 

[Kovenant84]

Ain't engineering courses great! (Assuming that's the stressor.)

Lina, good point. I love to learn about other cultures, and I have no problem with vocabulary, but funnily enough I have trouble with the grammar and verb conjugations the most. I always laugh at that because American English is the most ass-backward language I know of.

~kov. (and I love how 'w.a.r.' is blanked out after 'ass'.)

 

[plintus]

You can't say wаr on this forum.

Peace, bitches!

 

[Kovenant84]

Wait. Now we can.

Crisis averted.

~kov.

 

[Taliesin]

Ain't engineering courses great! (Assuming that's the stressor.)

Yea, I have a material science lab of death next week, 50 hours in 5 days and the week after that an oral exam. It's probably my best subject but a shitload of work and the oral exam is definitely a stresser
In the 6 weeks after, I have 5 exams Id need at the very least about 2 weeks of preparation for, which with a little math you'll see I dont have.. and after all this joy, my regular courses start again.. so it's really a shitty couple of months I have in view there.
But I dont mean to whine, I knew what I was in for when I signed up, so..

 

[Kovenant84]

Oh, the joys of Mat Sci lab. I remember taking that. Probably a completely shit version compared to what you have to do, but all the same it was a pain in the ass. Best of luck with it.

(And the math will come eventually. I failed Calc 2 the first time I went through it. Differential Eq's aren't too bad, but for some reason Vector Calc was killin me.)

~kov.

 

[Taliesin]

Probably a completely shit version compared to what you have to do, but all the same it was a pain in the ass.

Why would yours be a shit version compared to mine? Because german engineers are teh-omg-awesome? Our university has a good reputation for material science, but just an average reputation in general. I doubt there's a big difference in quality between your education and mine.