Confused About Turkey

[Morticia NL.]

Hey Blacken- you still haven't answered our questions about you...
And when I talked about support for Israel in Jordan, I was talking about the current situation. Ofcourse there are people everywhere that support peace. I mean, look around this forum and you will see that people are from all around.

 

[Blacken the angel]

I am from Syria , Damascus 18 years old guy .

 

[RashomoN]

Palestine, there is nothing called Palestine it won't exist , you will never find it in any map maybe you meant Israel ?

no.....
well.....i ment "Palestine" as the palestinians call it......
today it is Israel on the map......
but i'm not that pasimistic.....I do believe that one day you'll see it on the map......i surely hope so.....but more than that, I hope that Palestine will live side by side with Israel, in peace and harmony.


by the way.....good to have you here.....welcome!

 

[Blacken the angel]

by the way.....good to have you here.....welcome!

Thanks

 

[Morticia NL.]

Wonderful Blacken- that's great! I love to hear a 'voice' from a different place.
I love this forum- comikng here and chatting with people has changed my outlook on some things- I have a wider perspective in my views these days and I think this is a good thing.

 

[Turkey-OL-Fan]

siriusian abi sen niye bana sürekli baarıyosun ya? Hayır ne alıp veremediğin var ki benimle???

Ayrıca bu herif kimse susmayacak yemin etti heralde.

Şarap'ın özü olarak kımız gösterilmiştir yoksa şarap eski yunanlılara ait bi içkidir. Meyan kökü kola ikilemi gibi bişi bu

 

[RashomoN]

Nathalie, I feel almost the same as you.....
although in deeper way.....
I always wanted to meet people from countries like Syria, which considered in Israel as "enemy" countries......only because our governments can't stand each other.....
they always think it is possible, but can't take the risk....so they delay it to the next ones.....

 

[Blacken the angel]

siriusian abi sen niye bana sürekli baarıyosun ya? Hayır ne alıp veremediğin var ki benimle???

Ayrıca bu herif kimse susmayacak yemin etti heralde.

Şarap'ın özü olarak kımız gösterilmiştir yoksa şarap eski yunanlılara ait bi içkidir. Meyan kökü kola ikilemi gibi bişi bu

dude I think that you must post in English, Right?
what are you saying ?

 

[Blacken the angel]

Now reading a book about Mustafa Kemal Attaturk,
http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/10761?book=Kemal_Ataturk

 

[UnConscious]

i read the excerpt from the book now and it seems pretty good. that scene isn't told so correcly and good in most books, even those written by the turkish historians.
the war in gallipoli has also extreme importance in the histories of australia and new zealand. after they lost the battle (not the whole war but that single battle) they began to realize that they are not british but australians and new zealanders. every year their grandsons and granddaughters gather in gallipoli to remember this history, under the stone which reads the words of Atatürk:

Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets where they lie side by side here in this country of ours... You, the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries, wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.

and of course that battle has also a big, sad importance in history of turkey, too, since thousands of young boys, mostly scholars have died and therefore we can say that the intellectual future of turkey was almost destroyed there...

 

[Blacken the angel]

Can you suggest more books to read about the New Turkish republic, also about the Turkish-Armenian conflict , it seems that it's very easy to get very wrong information on the internet
also when I searched images.google.com for Armenian Genocide I almost cried , my heart was scattered to many pieces, I felt gloomy , ill, sick ,I was horrified by these pictures ,I was really shocked.


I mean what was the "young turks organization" role ?
What was the ottomans government role ?
Did they plan and commited this massacare ?
Did the Armenians attack Turkey, therefore it was a War between the Armenian and the Turks ?
Can all the pics that I saw be wrong ?
maybe the whole thing, media , pics , is only to make the world feel haterd towards Turkey (propaganda_)



I know maybe it's wrong to talk about these things here , but to see the big picture , it's very hard you know...
I mean that, I see armenian guys and girls every day in my university, they look very peaceful and nice and very innocent

Hope I am not getting banned for this post.

 

[Morticia NL.]

Blacken< I know what you mean, I also saw some of these pictures. It is hard to say who is right or wrong, I think there is no ultimate truth in thse matters.
It is a brave thing to ask for information here. I hope someone can help you. I don't know enough about it to tell you.

By the way, I wanted to make a post about it last week, but was too busy. Have you heard that Orhan Pamuk- the famous Turkish writer- has won the Nobel Peace Prize? This is very special, because in Turkey he was arrested last year for saying things about the Armenians and was charged for insulting the Turkish national identity. All this because he as a public figure, dared to openly talk about 'the Armenian question'
I am not stating that no Turkish support him, because a friend told me that in certain circles in Turkey he is very much applauded for his courage.

And his books are beautiful. I am now reading Istanbul, and I love the way he describes the city- it is like he can read my thoughts from when I was there and I feel the place come to life from the pages.

Maybe it would be interesting to check out some articles about this writer.

 

[UnConscious]

Can you suggest more books to read about the New Turkish republic, also about the Turkish-Armenian conflict , it seems that it's very easy to get very wrong information on the internet
also when I searched images.google.com for Armenian Genocide I almost cried , my heart was scattered to many pieces, I felt gloomy , ill, sick ,I was horrified by these pictures ,I was really shocked.


I mean what was the "young turks organization" role ?
What was the ottomans government role ?
Did they plan and commited this massacare ?
Did the Armenians attack Turkey, therefore it was a War between the Armenian and the Turks ?
Can all the pics that I saw be wrong ?
maybe the whole thing, media , pics , is only to make the world feel haterd towards Turkey (propaganda_)



I know maybe it's wrong to talk about these things here , but to see the big picture , it's very hard you know...
I mean that, I see armenian guys and girls every day in my university, they look very peaceful and nice and very innocent

Hope I am not getting banned for this post.

Of course such atrocities can be found in every conflict, like the recent photos posted in the topic about the israeli-lebanese conflict. Unfortunately the face of war is so bizzarre in everywhere in the world.
About the Armenian conflict.. I will tell the story as how we see the issue from Turkey.
It began during World War I. As you probably know the Ottoman Empire was fighting in that war, in many different battles and was an old and exhausted empire and had lost most of its power. The British wanted the Ottomans to have internal conflicts so that they couldn't fight in the World War with full power. So, the Armenians in the eastern Anatolia were seduced by the British to attack Turks. They thought it would be a good opportunity to partition the empire and take over some new lands. So they began founding gangs and attacking Turkish villages. They really slaughtered the Turks there. And the government couldn't do anything about it because of the war. They didn't protect the Turkish folks in those villages, so Turks began founding their own gangs as well and they also attacked the Armenians. Thus a civil war had begun. The both sides were very violent in their actions, just like those in the photos you have seen. But the victims were not only Armenians but Turks, too. (maybe even more Turks than Armenians)
Finally the government, which was led by the Young Turks decided to evacuate the Armenians from the region to stop the civil war. So the Armenians were forced to migrate to the south (to the border of Syria) During the evacuation the civil war continued. Turkish gangs attacked the Armenians on the road, so, many people died during the evacuation as well. This is a very sad and bizarre thing, I must agree.
But the intention of the government was not committing a holocaust. They did it to stop the civil war, but it didn't. So you can ask why the government didn't provide protection during the evacuation. But as you can guess they were too busy with the World War and couldn't spare an army into the region. They couldn't protect the Turks and they couldn't protect the Armenians so thousands of people died.
So, the starting point was the Armenians being seduced to slaughter Turks. As you can guess, before that Turks and Armenians had lived together peacefully...

Currently, the Republic of Turkey does not see this action as a genocide. The Armenians and most Europeans claim that it was an intended genocide, but it was not. It was a civil war in which both Turks and Armenians acted violently and slaugthered each other. The Turkish government called for Armenian, Turkish and international historians to come together and discuss the issue, but the Armenians didn't accept this. So it's a main conflict for today. Close to what you said. A propaganda against Turkey. At least that's what we see from here.

And of course the Armenians you see are very peaceful and nice, there are still about 70.000 Armenians living in Turkey today and I have a few Armenian friends as well. We still live together, without any cultural or ethnic differentiation...
This has been a bit too long maybe, I hope I could make this issue clear.

 

[UnConscious]

By the way, I wanted to make a post about it last week, but was too busy. Have you heard that Orhan Pamuk- the famous Turkish writer- has won the Nobel Peace Prize? This is very special, because in Turkey he was arrested last year for saying things about the Armenians and was charged for insulting the Turkish national identity. All this because he as a public figure, dared to openly talk about 'the Armenian question'
I am not stating that no Turkish support him, because a friend told me that in certain circles in Turkey he is very much applauded for his courage.

And his books are beautiful. I am now reading Istanbul, and I love the way he describes the city- it is like he can read my thoughts from when I was there and I feel the place come to life from the pages.

Maybe it would be interesting to check out some articles about this writer.

He didn't win the peace prize, he won the Nobel Prize of Literature. So the award was given to him for what he wrote, not for what he said. At least that's the official claim of the Nobel Foundation.
As far as I know he was not arrested, but he was sued and I don't know the result of the court. But it's true that in Turkey it needs courage to call the Armenian evacuation as genocide. Just like it needs courage not to call it as genocide in Switzerland, and as it will be in France if the law can pass from the parliament (it is being heavily protested nowadays in Turkey)
Did you know that an official Turkish historian was arrested in Switzerland for denying the so-called genocide? Now I call that courage.
Did you know Orhan Pamuk made his claims in February 2005, and denied them in October 2005, after last year's Nobel prizes were announced? Then, suddenly in 2006, in Germany he repeats what he has said. And our very courageous(?) author wins the 2006 Nobel prize. Weird, eh? :Smug:
Also there are some proofs that his books contain heavy plagiarism.
There are a lot of Turkish authors who deserve an international prize of literature, but I don't think that Orhan Pamuk is one of them.

 

[Morticia NL.]

Sorry, my mistake in writing the wrong prize. I guess posting late at night is not good.
Good thing you said about the way he made his statements, I didn't know that. Overhere he has been known for a long time with literature lovers. I don't know about copying from other authors, I have read books by other Turkish writers and yes, there is more on the same themes Pamuk writes about and also the same style. But this can also be said about a lot of South American writers. I think the way you write is heavenly influenced by where you come from and if you have the same background it is only logical. Still i think you should be proud of him winning this very important prize.

As for France mingling in the conflict, it is weird they have made a law about it- now it is forbidden to say there was no genocide in Turkey. On the other hand this is all political play and has a lot to do with Turkey wanting to become a member of the EU.
In Holland 2 Turkish were taken off the voting list of a political party because they stated they don't think Armenians were slaughtered, they said hardly any were killed. Then the Dutch government said they could not be a part of our government, because they then would have to support the Dutch point of view and they don't want to do that. In this matter I agree that they thus cannot be elected, because they are too far from the official Dutch point of view.

You see the matter is very much alive in todays politics. I think this is because just now it has become something that is finally being discussed openly.

Thank you or the clear explanation on the matter. I tend to believe this one is closer to the truth. Those days were some of the most tumultuous times in turkish history.

 

[Blacken the angel]

Britain , They also managed to support the Arabs against the Ottomans rule(like they did when they supported Armenia), they gave them promises , then After they defeted the Ottomans , Britain and France Divided The Arabs territory, Britain took Iraq, Palastain , and Jordan . France took over lebanon ,Algeria and Syria .

So Britain used the Arabs as a weapon against the Ottomans, Then after they defeated the Ottomans , They Occupied the Arabs territory.

 

[UnConscious]

Britain , They also managed to support the Arabs against the Ottomans rule(like they did when they supported Armenia), they gave them promises , then After they defeted the Ottomans , Britain and France Divided The Arabs territory, Britain took Iraq, Palastain , and Jordan . France took over lebanon ,Algeria and Syria .

So Britain used the Arabs as a weapon against the Ottomans, Then after they defeated the Ottomans , They Occupied the Arabs territory.

yes you are right.
the British war policy is a bit weird I think. They don't just fight on the battlefield but they do whatever they can do lead their enemies to chaos. Kinda like the Chinese (They divide their enemies into 2 or 3 countries then conquer all of them )
They tried to use the Kurds as well, just after the Republic was established, but the rebels couldn't find enough supporters among Kurds because Kurds and Turks had fought together side by side in the war of independence. So the British changed their strategy and turned this rebellion from a Kurdish national act to a radical Islamic act and it became a huge revolt which caused a lot of trouble in the first years of the Republic :Smug:
After World War I has ended, they had promised Italy many places from western Anatolia, but later on they promised the same lands to Greece, therefore Italians got angry and didn't fight us in our War of Independence. Almost the same thing for the French. They came to fight us but left without any significant fighting because they, too, were angry against the British And they left their weapons as they leave, which we used against the Greeks and the British during the last big battle in the war of independence. So their two-sided actions turned back on them.

 

[UnConscious]

Sorry, my mistake in writing the wrong prize. I guess posting late at night is not good.
Good thing you said about the way he made his statements, I didn't know that. Overhere he has been known for a long time with literature lovers. I don't know about copying from other authors, I have read books by other Turkish writers and yes, there is more on the same themes Pamuk writes about and also the same style. But this can also be said about a lot of South American writers. I think the way you write is heavenly influenced by where you come from and if you have the same background it is only logical. Still i think you should be proud of him winning this very important prize.

As for France mingling in the conflict, it is weird they have made a law about it- now it is forbidden to say there was no genocide in Turkey. On the other hand this is all political play and has a lot to do with Turkey wanting to become a member of the EU.
In Holland 2 Turkish were taken off the voting list of a political party because they stated they don't think Armenians were slaughtered, they said hardly any were killed. Then the Dutch government said they could not be a part of our government, because they then would have to support the Dutch point of view and they don't want to do that. In this matter I agree that they thus cannot be elected, because they are too far from the official Dutch point of view.

You see the matter is very much alive in todays politics. I think this is because just now it has become something that is finally being discussed openly.

Thank you or the clear explanation on the matter. I tend to believe this one is closer to the truth. Those days were some of the most tumultuous times in turkish history.

The plagiarism issue is not just about the style, there are some passages that he directly copied from other books into his books, by just changing a few sentences.
Anyway, you are right about it being a political issue. For what happened in Holland it seems to be right. Denying that Armenians have died is very much different than denying that it was an intentional genocide. And it is logical to have them removed from the lists if they won't get elected.
About the EU, there is an in-joke in here. It says that every big country in the European Union (Germany, Spain, France, England...) has somewhat committed genocide to different races and if Turkey wants to be a part of the union she must have a genocide history as well, so that's why they are forcing us to accept it as genocide
I know it's not good to joke on such things but anyway I wanted to share it I hope it won't offend anybody..

 

[BC-A]

As for France mingling in the conflict, it is weird they have made a law about it- now it is forbidden to say there was no genocide in Turkey. On the other hand this is all political play and has a lot to do with Turkey wanting to become a member of the EU.

And according to me this is the only reason. Mostly because most of the Frenchs and the current government don't want Turkey in Europe. So this is a good pressure point...

There is a big debate around it here, the biggest argue being that a law should not rewrite history. But histories are different from a country to another. So...

 

[exy]

Well actually its not about christianity or islam or judaism.Its about being modern or not.In Turkey israeli bands such as Orphaned land,Distorted feels so comfotable.Because they has got similar culture.Religion isnt that important guys.We are all humans after all.But of course there are extremist selfish bastards....regardless of what religion they believe.