Confused About Turkey

[siriusian]

siriusian abi sen niye bana sürekli baarıyosun ya? Hayır ne alıp veremediğin var ki benimle???

Ayrıca bu herif kimse susmayacak yemin etti heralde.

Şarap'ın özü olarak kımız gösterilmiştir yoksa şarap eski yunanlılara ait bi içkidir. Meyan kökü kola ikilemi gibi bişi bu

Bi dakka bi dakka ne zaman sana baardım ha? Hep küçük harflerle konuşmadım mı? Ayrıca büyüklerine saygılı ol bana "herif" diye hitap etme) Henüz yemin etmedim ama böyle gidersen yemin üstüne yeminler edeceğime dair yemin edebilirim valla. Ayrıca neden susayım? Burası adı üstünde "forum" değil mi? Yunanca bu kelimenin anlamı nedir, bari bunun öğreniver bi zahmet. Forumlar susma yeri midir sence? Demokrasiye inanmıyor musun? Hani konuşan Türkiye? Bir de pornoya ağır ceza mı var? Öyle olsaydı Şahin K çoktan idam edilirdi di mi canım? Kumardan da ağır cezalık olan yok! Bir dahaki sefere kadar iyice hukuk, tarih ve politika çalış sınav yapiciim. Bunun gibi sorular: Türkiye İslam Devleti midir, laik Cumhuriyet midir? İnsan doğar doğmaz mı Müslüman olur yoksa bu ergenlikten başlayan bilinçli bir seçim midir? Derya'ya da din devletlerinde Cumhuriyet yoksa o zaman İran İslam Cumhuriyeti ne demek oleyo gibilerinden sormayı isterim... Neyse neyse tartışmaya devam edelim ki bilgilenelim. "Bilmemek değil öğrenmemek ayıp". Ayıp etmeyelim arkadaşlar... Beni de fazla ciddiye almayın...

 

[siriusian]

dude I think that you must post in English, Right?
what are you saying ?

Do not interfere with us. It is not something international. We Turks are just having fun ourselves.

By the way please do not twist my words again. Noone I believe can have such dry linear logic by nature really. Please use your imagination to realize the truth/others words, right? As for the 99% Moslem-1% non-Moslem issue: I think we always should have different outlooks and a wider perspective. An original view is: we are not ruled by ourselves -but USA!!! We have this colony major under the disgusal of "US ambassador". He dictates White House's orders to us and interferes with our inner politics. Even they committed coup-de-etats against leftism in Turkey (three times, the last one being some 26 years ago). Nowadays they are busy working to build for a so-called "light Islamic" Turkish state to make a role model for Arabs- so that they would control the fundamental Middle East easier. We served as a border guard against communism for them in the Cold War Era and now it is time to serve them by ruining our secularity. In US they "feed" and let reside the biggest fundamentalist Islamic leaders, the sworn enemies of secular Turkey. And in due time they will be "set to release" for a civil war. That's why their biggest fear is the person you can see in my avatar. If US did not exist (or did not control our country at least) we would have more freedom, democracy and have a strong secular background integrated with Europe sooner and quicker! Not many Islamists today and we would have more metalheads, more bands, more shows, more zines, more labels, more money, more beer, more whatever... Into darkness we are falling day by day... BUT the spirit of Ataturk will defeat those who oppose us once again...

PS: I hope you are not that fascist idiot in disguisal some months ago who posted under the nickname "Dark Medieval Times" (a title of a BM album). Well, "Blacken The Angel" is also a BM album title. Coincidence? I hope so!...

 

[Blacken the angel]

Do not interfere with us. It is not something international. We Turks are just having fun ourselves.

Have fun ..

PS: I hope you are not that fascist idiot in disguisal some months ago who posted under the nickname "Dark Medieval Times" (a title of a BM album). Well, "Blacken The Angel" is also a BM album title. Coincidence? I hope so!...

"Blacken The Angel" is as A BM album By Agathodiamon , and it's one of my favorites indeed..
No I am not that guy you'r talking about.

 

[siriusian]

In Holland 2 Turkish were taken off the voting list of a political party because they stated they don't think Armenians were slaughtered, they said hardly any were killed. Then the Dutch government said they could not be a part of our government, because they then would have to support the Dutch point of view and they don't want to do that. In this matter I agree that they thus cannot be elected, because they are too far from the official Dutch point of view.

QUOTE]

Well, if one should have to support the Dutch point of view then how do you evaluate the freedom of thought in your country then? Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis. In this situation how do you think you can reach to a final conclusion in terms of scientific/historical research? Do you possess mental freedom? For me I can oppose the Turkish points of view in definite issues. I consider the philosophy of HM a rebel against society and the order and a way of life . I guess people in Europe must have the same freedom and democracy and the freedom of opposition as well. How can Dutch point of views represent the absolute realities? Does the official/governmental Dutch point of view support the Moslem Ottomans killings of Armenians too? Plus Azi killings of Armenians? If NOT then how do you explain such hypocrisy? Is ignoring part of reality a Dutch (or French, Swiss etc.) policy? Furthermore does the judges in the courts listen ONLY one side? As for the three (not two as far as I know from the press here) candidates dropped from the list I heard them saying on the TV that it all happened because they denied the genocide-not the killings.

Open discussion for everyone: How about other killings in the history of the world? Like, say, French (to Algerians), American (to Indians), Spanish (to Aztecs), British (to Aborigins) and other killings? Have these governments be able to make laws about those countries too? If not I would very like to know why? And if there's any I would "like" to know that too. And please tell me why Turkey serves as a scapegoat.

I am curious about some more points of it. For instance if a historian in those countries would make a reserch on this issue and come to the conclusion that there had never been a so-called Armenian "genocide" how can s/he make a statement of his scientific research since s/he would be sued? Is history as a science annihilated in some part of Europe? Can the parliamanters in such countries make a law against the, let's say, law of gravity? Will their people also support such ridiculous thing? As a citizen do they ever ask for a proof? How can they support legal ideas without questioning the whole issue? Moreover are the politicians elected for the welfare of your country OR to make historical judgements about other nations? Are they at the same all cultivated scholars of history? Why I mean, why don't they hear the other side? By the way Orhan Pamuk (and Elif Şafak) have acquited of their lawsuits. He always has been after a Nobel Prize and you can not have it without speaking ill of your country. He has done work his well and now is the time to deny all his words.

Thanks everyone in advance for contributing with the issue here.

 

[demntoeternity]

No if his parents are christian or jew it's written accordingly.
According to the law nobody can be forced to reveal his/her religious belief but on the other hand it -theoritically- writes on the ID! Anyway it's a very stupid thing and is not used anywhere at all except for maybe statistical purposes. I hope and believe that it will be removed from the ID sooner or later.

As an updated info. now the religion part of the ID can be left empty if requested. Before if the parents were muslim it was a must to have "islam" in the part. Just wanted to mention

 

[Blacken the angel]

thx for reviving this thread

 

[Blacken the angel]

But at what age do Turkish pple get their ID ? If the ID is given to them at a very young age(here we get ID at 15) then they will probably write their parents religion :Smug:
unless they can update their ID when they grow up.

 

[demntoeternity]

Aye at first they'll get whatever their parent wish.. But before the only think that you could get was "islam" in that space.. Now people might put the name in what they believe.. or just leave empty.. This is whats new..
And yea ppl will be able to remove/change the space when they are considered to be adult; meaning the at the age of 18.

Hope this helps

 

[demntoeternity]

I am also so content to have ppl like you who wanna get info. and know the "real" Turkey.. I mean beside from the ones showed to you by the TVs..

 

[siriusian]

As an updated info. now the religion part of the ID can be left empty if requested. Before if the parents were muslim it was a must to have "islam" in the part. Just wanted to mention

Don't get relaxed dear. There will "still" be that column so you can't have the luxury to leave it blank, can you really?

 

[Blacken the angel]

The funny thing is there is no religion entry in my ID.
and you calim that your government is secular and not related to religion at all

 

[HeathenPride]

Well, i also respect and love Atatürk who was the founder of Turkey.

But, i don't think that he was the only one person who fighted for the demoracy. During the latest times of Ottomans, who can see many reforms, and new politic movements for developing the country.

So Atatürk was the result. He had success to unite whole the nation.

He was diffrent from rest of other revulationists. None of Lenin or Hitler's state could survive. Most of the moslems countries was also in same kind with Turkey in the Atatürk times. But none of Iran (before 1970 of Islamic revulation, it was able to say that Turkey and Iran almost were the same countries) or Afganistan.

But on background, Turkey still have diffrent thing.

We are in Europe and Minor Asia about for 1000 years. It's even able to say that, today's Turkey is based on ancient greek culture.

And religiously we are also diffrent from most of other "islamic" countries.

Iran is a shia state, they have Islamic leaders.

About %80 of people in Turkey are the Sunni's. And almost all of them are the Khanefi sect of Sunni. Especially in gulf countries, most of the Arabians are Khambeli and Wahabi. They believe that if something written on Quran, they have to do anything word by word, in Turkey, we can think about it and get it like if something else has mentioned.

Also there is a Shafi sect of Sunni's on South eastern Turkey. That they are even more scrict than Shia's but they are not in big number.

And the %20 of Moslems in Turkey are Bektashi. There are also bekthashis in Albania. They drink alcholly drinks and don't get it as sin even. They have their own temples and they worship together with women and men. In every temple of them in Turkey, you can see the portaits of Atatürk, who is the symbolism of secularty and freedom for religion. It can give you some idea to you if you'd read bektashi jokes: beliefs-jokes1

A Bektashi was in a mosque one day listening to the hodja give a sermon. He was half
asleep when the hodja began talking about the pure virgins that awaited the faithful in
heaven.
When he heard the word heaven, the Bektashi came to himself and asked the hodja
excitedly
" Hodja efendi will wine and raki be served to the faithful in heaven?"

The hodja became furious and shouted back,
" You pagan, what do you think heaven is... a tavern?!"

The Bektashi replied likewise,
" Hah! What do you think heaven is... a whorehouse?!"

 

[HeathenPride]

And the religion thing on identify card.

In Greece which is an EU state, there was religion part in ID's some years ago. But the EU wanted to remove it.

Probably they'd ask us to remove it in some years too

 

[HeathenPride]

And actually, while renewing your id card, you can simply make it empty depending of latest laws, since 2 weeks only : /

 

[schivmeister]

orphaned land! hahah just dropping by..new in UM joined coz my no.1 band just got a forum here (i choose not to mention). saw this interesting thread while surfing. thot i'd provide my input because this is indeed INTERESTING

first of all, let me tell u that the so-called rivalry/tension between the muslims and jahudis/jews are not religion-based, well atleast thats NOT known by many. 90% of muslims these days around the world think that religion has set up its own barrier between them and the jews. That is only true to a very very little extent. Men made religion an excuse. This has got more to do with racial, ethnic, and political issues. So just because most "Muslim" countries dont have Israel under the "allowed" lists in their passports, it doesnt mean u should think "Islam forbids Muslim-Jewish Relations". Its not Islam or Judaism..its the Muslims & Jews.

So people around the world already have this perception that Muslims MUST be narrow, one-way, totally self-obsessed, yada yada yada. Well sadly yes. But then again, like the country in concern here, there are such countries that want to come out of the "Barbarian Age" we call it. If u study Psychology u should know that there exist some men/women, whether Muslim, Jewish, Christian or otherwise who have the same characteristics as barbarians back in those days of dates and palm trees and camels. These are the ones who ruin the image of their religions. But the world is different now and u can no longer have the same principles same values working for u to survive this world. Religion is already widespread. Theres evn online religious education. So dont tell me we need "Holy Wars" now. That was then, when there were too many barbarians and regions needed to be "cleansed". Which leads me to say that Porn, Alcohol, Casinos dont make a country any less Muslim/Christian/Jewish. It just means that country has got business! There are millions of people who do not heed the law. Same goes for religion, there are millions who do not heed the laws of their belief systems. U can have ur religion stated as "Jew" or "Muslim" in ur passport or whatevr but u may still b a leading actor in a hit Adult film. Dont tell me Christianity tells u "Let us indulge in the fruits of passion!" So yes, Porn and Wine in Turkey doesnt mean Vlad Tepes came back and impaled thousands more Turks. Plus, deciphering your Holy Book is key. Like mentioned-above, some take it word by word.

Anyway..the world cannot b more stupid because people are being divided within their own family. For example Judaism, Christianity, & Islam..why cant they just get along? Afterall they are Abrahamic religions, stemming from the same tree. They point to One God. They have similar values. Even the Old Testament has much in common with the Qur'an and Torah. The problem is, its the people to blame, not the religions.

I salute Orphaned Land for having such a theme whereby one dreams and hopes of peace and unity among people, especially the highly reactive Abrahamic followers. In case u want to question me of my sources of information, religion etc which ur probably already planning to do while reading this; i am simply a Practical Muslim, or just a harmless Monotheist who does formal research (im unpaid, its voluntary teamwork) on beliefs, people, cosmology, and..Orphaned Land! Oops..sorry for digging up this thread heheh.

 

[UnConscious]

thanks a lot for writing
you are right in what you say, especially about confusing ethnic conflicts with religious conflicts. for example, during the ottoman ages the jews were respected as artists and merchants in istanbul, just like armenians and greeks and their religions were not of any concern. all conflicts in turkey result from political issues, like conflicts with the greek, armenians or recently jews, because of the political acts of their states or acts of them in other states. they never resulted from religious difference. it's the same, only much harsher, with the conflicts between arabs and jews. religion comes into people's minds only after the conflicts grow into wars and i believe that it's not the main motive in those conflicts, but nationalism is more likely to be.

 

[schivmeister]

yep. not a prob Just thot i'd share what i know..

its all in the mind. the human brain is just so quick to lock onto something that evn if its a wrong perception it'll always remain right to it. u see a Black beating up a White, u think "hey blacks must b uncivilised!" and that stays with u for a long time. U see a white beating up a hispanic and u go "ahh whites must have no heart" n same goes for that. So when the world sees Muslim people blasting up places they think "Muslims must be terrorists!" And when they hear of how Israel is so frowned upon in Muslim countries they think "hmm Islam must b forbidding its followers to maintain good relations with Jews".

 

[RashomoN]

schivmeister, the problem is that to many people (jews and muslims) are not open minded as you are......

so welcome to the open minded people's forum!
good to have you here....

 

[schivmeister]

hah that is something we all know for sure

glad im not frowned upon down here

 

[HeathenPride]

Well, i don't think that there are a lot of nations in the world who never had wars in history. Not long time ago, Germans were bombing London, Austria was fighting against France etc. Even the grannies in the european countries have lived such days.

We Turks also had wars against Mongolians, Chinians, Russians, Greeks, Europeans, Romans even against Arabs in diffrent times of the history. But actually we are living in 21st century.

Also i am not agree that Atatürk was the only one guy who fighted for secularism and saved our state. Atatürk was a result, what do people here needed on latest times of Ottomans. He was succesful and he abled to unite people. If he was the only one guy, after his death, probably Turkey could be turned into an Islamic state, it is not possible, because turkish people also like secularism or democracy.