Controversial opinions on metal

[rusty water]

Lester Bangs and Mike Saunders both contributed to Rolling Stone magazine. David Marsh co-founded Creem magazine with Lester Bangs. They were not only famous in the United States.

I never read any of those magazines in the UK. In the UK we read Kerrang! magazine and also `sounds` and `nme` music newspapers.

 

[Krow]

 

[rusty water]

I would say Child in time is metal in the same way Hallowed be thy name by Iron Maiden is metal. Do you consider Iron Maiden metal?

Maiden are `heavy metal` in my opinion, yes. I know that rock riffs are very similar to `heavy metal` riffs, it is the nuances that there are that distinguishes `heavy metal` from say Hendrix or Deep Purple riffs that I consider Hard Rock ( Deep Purple that is- hard rock not Hendrix ).

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I never read any of those magazines in the UK. In the UK we read Kerrang! magazine and also `sounds` and `nme` music newspapers.

That's cool. Heavy metal as a music descriptor was still used in the 1970s and Black Sabbath was one of the first bands to be called that. Whether you read about it or not is irrelevant.

 

[rusty water]

I could see an argument to say that Black Sabbath weren't a heavy metal band (at least on the early Ozzy albums) and were actually a doom metal band, given that the tempo of heavy metal is usually much faster, and palm mutes are used more often as a rhythmic device. That still makes them a metal band, though, at least if you're not willing to argue that every doom band is also disqualified from being metal.

Thats an opinion of course, and yes of course there are similarities as I have repeatedly said, ask Ozzy though, he doesnt think so.

 

[CiG]

Who cares he's a fucking vocalist. Ask Iommi.

 

[rusty water]

That's cool. Heavy metal as a music descriptor was still used in the 1970s and Black Sabbath was one of the first bands to be called that. Whether you read about it or not is irrelevant.

In my opinion and also Ozzy`s opinion though, they arent `heavy metal`. I dont see Blizzard of oz `heavy metal` either. I see Randy Rhoads as a rock guitarist, amongst other things.

Rhoads best guitar lines, and really the majority of them are, are blues scales. He used all the classical scales too, but his most effective ones were blues based. In a sense Rhoads was blues / rock in that he was using blues scales. Of course the music itself wasnt blues, at least not in how it sounded.

 

[Internally Deformed]

Thats an opinion of course, and yes of course there are similarities as I have repeatedly said, ask Ozzy though, he doesnt think so.

The last part isn't an opinion, just an appeal to logical consistency. Would you say this is metal?

 

[MrTagoMago]

Why is Iron Maiden Metal but not Black Sabbath even though Sabbath is heavier than Iron Maiden. Would you consider Iron Claw and Bedemon to be heavy metal?

 

[rusty water]

I'm willing to admit Black Sabbath weren't a completely heavy metal band in the beginning, but many of their songs are undoubtedly blueprints for heavy metal.

But, I am absolutely not willing to admit that heavy metal doesn't become a genre until 1980 and beyond. In my opinion, heavy metal is a fully formed genre by the middle of the 70's.
Objectively by 1976 with the release of Sad Wings Of Destiny.

I can see what you are saying, and I agree with it all. Their music is a blueprint for `heavy metal`. But in my opinion Sabbath are hard rock based. Metal is different.

 

[rusty water]

The last part isn't an opinion, just an appeal to logical consistency. Would you say this is metal?

Id say that is a band that is ripping Black Sabbath off.I mean blatantly. It sounds like something that would be on volume 4

 

[rusty water]

Why is Iron Maiden Metal but not Black Sabbath even though Sabbath is heavier than Iron Maiden. Would you consider Iron Claw and Bedemon to be heavy metal?

Iron Maiden has no blues feel to it, it is manufactured riffs, mechanical. To me, it is plastic, not metal lol. See, do you think Hendrix is metal, some of his riffs are heavier than some of Sabbaths and Iron Maidens.

 

[Internally Deformed]

Id say that is a band that is ripping Black Sabbath off.I mean blatantly.

*defines genre of doom metal*

 

[CiG]

You keep appealing to Ozzy's opinion, well I googled it and his contention over the heavy metal label had nothing at all to do with music in a technical sense but rather that it was angry people screaming into a microphone...

Sabbath are hard rock based. Metal is different.

Metal is hard rock based though.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Iron Maiden has no blues feel to it, it is manufactured riffs, mechanical. To me, it is plastic, not metal lol. See, do you think Hendrix is metal, some of his riffs are heavier than some of Sabbaths and Iron Maidens.

Hendrix has metal elements but I'd never say he was pure metal by any means. I do believe metal existed before Sabbath but I think Sabbath was the first true metal band if that makes sense. You also ignored my question about Iron Claw and Bedemon.

 

[MrTagoMago]

*defines genre of doom metal*

I wonder if this means Sabbath were a blatant rip off of High tide lol.

 

[rusty water]

*defines genre of doom metal*

Sabbath are a blues based hard rock band though. This band are copying that, not the other way around. That is what, in my opinion Sabbath are, a blues based hard rock band. Yes, some of their riffs could be seen as being `heavy metal` riffs, but they arent a metal band, their roots are blues rock, and they, to me are a `heavy rock` band. In fact theat the term everyone I knew always used for Sabbath ` heavy rock`

 

[rusty water]

Hendrix has metal elements but I'd never say he was pure metal by any means. I do believe metal existed before Sabbath but I think Sabbath was the first true metal band if that makes sense. You also ignored my question about Iron Claw and Bedemon.

The reason I didnt post about Iron Claw and Bedemon is that I have never heard of them, and so cannot form an opinion, remember I am old school. I was out of the rock loop in the mid nineties dude.

 

[Internally Deformed]

Sabbath are a blues based hard rock band though. This band are copying that, not the other way around. That is what, in my opinion Sabbath are, a blues based hard rock band. Yes, some of their riffs could be seen as being `heavy metal` riffs, but they arent a metal band, their roots are blues rock, and they, to me are a `heavy rock` band. In fact theat the term everyone I knew always used for Sabbath ` heavy rock`

Where do you draw the line in Doom Metal then? It would be hard to make an argument that a band like Candlemass, for instance, are metal, whereas Pentagram and Black Sabbath aren't.

 

[CiG]

Sabbath are a blues based hard rock band though. This band are copying that, not the other way around. That is what, in my opinion Sabbath are, a blues based hard rock band. Yes, some of their riffs could be seen as being `heavy metal` riffs, but they arent a metal band, their roots are blues rock, and they, to me are a `heavy rock` band. In fact theat the term everyone I knew always used for Sabbath ` heavy rock`

He's saying there is an entire metal genre based around essentially copying Black Sabbath. So by extension you're saying doom metal isn't metal.