Controversial opinions on metal

[Dazed and Brutal]

Is there a list anywhere defining different sub-styles of death metal, e.g. not just by sub-genre but contrasting the mid-tempo chunky Death/Massacre/Morgoth/etc sound with the hardcore-tinged old-school Swedish sound with the labyrinthine early Deicide approach and so on? This discussion has inspired me to create an autistic ranking of them. I figure there's probably at least 30 or so categories that 99% of death metal bands (or at least particular albums) could be pigeonholed into.

Ill try and make you one this weekend

 

[Satanstoenail]

Blast beats in metal are a product of hardcore miscegenation. They represent a vile taint in the pure, noble bloodline of heavy metal.

Doesn't that mean that thrash metal itself is a vile taint?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Doesn't that mean that thrash metal itself is a vile taint?

It's a permissible exception (and crossover is mostly shit anyways).

 

[Satanstoenail]

It's a permissible exception (and crossover is mostly shit anyways).

What makes it permissible?

 

[Serjeant Grumbles]

The fact that HamburgerBoy likes it. So, not arbitrary in the slightest.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What makes it permissible?

Most elements of good thrash are still wholly derived from trad metal.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

... bringin' the lulz, once again

 

[HamburgerBoy]

There's very little hardcore in Metallica, Megadeth, Coroner, Mekong Delta, etc. Hardcore's influence on thrash seems kind of exaggerated actually, especially if you read interviews about the influences of the early bands. The two obvious and major exceptions are Slayer and Exodus, but in the former case it's mostly just in chord progressions from Hanneman (important but more to death metal than thrash on the whole), in the latter case it's attitude from Baloff (nebulous and hardly patentable) and the bringing of the skank beat from Hunting (something that probably would have come along by convergent evolution regardless). In terms of direct musical elements borrowed, death metal owes more to hardcore than thrash tbh.

 

[Satanstoenail]

The basic fast thrash beat came from hardcore though and that's pretty much what made thrash thrash originally. Pretty much all thrash features that beat, no matter how complex and/or melodic the riffcraft gets. And we are talking drum beats after all.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

If you accept

1) Presence of a thrash beat defines thrash metal
and
2) The thrash beat came from hardcore

Then logically it follows that all hardcore with the same beat is also thrash metal. Obviously not true. Riffing plays a much larger factor.

Besides, stuff like Ace of Spades and whatnot was more or less on the same page anyways, drum-wise.

 

[The Batlord]

Let's see, thrash was heavily influenced by hardcore. Death metal evolved from thrash. Black metal came from Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, and Bathory, who were basically Venom with a heavy dose of Discharge. Sludge came from the Melvins, who were hardcore. Grindcore... don't even have to justify that one. So I'm pretty sure if you purged hardcore from metal you'd be left with power metal (and not even all of it) and doom metal (sans death doom of course).

So tell us again how metal and hardcore shouldn't mix.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

A little hardcore is OK, but it should hide in one of the back rooms when there's family visiting.

 

[Satanstoenail]

If you accept

1) Presence of a thrash beat defines thrash metal
and
2) The thrash beat came from hardcore

Then logically it follows that all hardcore with the same beat is also thrash metal. Obviously not true. Riffing plays a much larger factor.

Besides, stuff like Ace of Spades and whatnot was more or less on the same page anyways, drum-wise.

I'm not saying it defines it, but it's a large part of what made thrash different from regular metal. I think the hardcore influence in thrash is much larger than you give it credit for.

Motorhead just played rock & roll faster than other people because they were off their dials on speed. Completely different.

 

[CiG]

Weren't Metallica vocal about being influenced by early Misfits?

 

[The Ozzman]

Weren't Metallica vocal about being influenced by early Misfits?

+ Anti Nowhere League

 

[CiG]

True but I was thinking more along the lines of hardcore punk.

 

[mutantllama]

Let's see, thrash was heavily influenced by hardcore. Death metal evolved from thrash. Black metal came from Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, and Bathory, who were basically Venom with a heavy dose of Discharge. Sludge came from the Melvins, who were hardcore. Grindcore... don't even have to justify that one. So I'm pretty sure if you purged hardcore from metal you'd be left with power metal (and not even all of it) and doom metal (sans death doom of course).

So tell us again how metal and hardcore shouldn't mix.

Saint Vitus and The Obsessed have a pretty strong hardcore influence as well.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I'm not saying it defines it, but it's a large part of what made thrash different from regular metal. I think the hardcore influence in thrash is much larger than you give it credit for.

Motorhead just played rock & roll faster than other people because they were off their dials on speed. Completely different.

Hardly different. The idea of playing bass-snare-bassbass-snare fast isn't that novel. If drumming was such an important factor, Ace of Spades would be more hardcore than the Nervous Breakdown EP (a widely-considered early hardcore masterpiece containing zero skank beats). Without the riffing considered, drumming means nothing.

Weren't Metallica vocal about being influenced by early Misfits?

Hetfield was a fan at least, but the Misfits are barely hardcore. I'll admit that Motorbreath is almost a punk rock song, but it's one exception and one of their least thrashy songs regardless.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

too high to reply, but let me try ... HBB 's right about a few things (riff=king) ... but i don't think anyone here is arguing that hardcore played a bigger role in the "creation" of, or was as important to thrash metal as heavy metal itself was.
misifts where hardcore? news to me. but then again i don't listen to them much. I much prefer Danzig's solo work.

 

[The Batlord]

too high to reply, but let me try ... HBB 's right about a few things (riff=king) ... but i don't think anyone here is arguing that hardcore played a bigger role in the "creation" of, or was as important to thrash metal as heavy metal itself was.
misifts where hardcore? news to me. but then again i don't listen to them much. I much prefer Danzig's solo work.

So what would you call Earth AD?