Controversial opinions on metal

[CiG]

I think Lucifer's Friend's Ride the Sky might be a more complete heavy metal song than anything on the first two Sabbath albums tbh.

It's a shame the rest of that album doesn't hold up as well as that song does.

Other massively influential bands for me are Uriah Heep and Steppenwolf.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Black Sabbath, while clearly a heavy metal band, definitely had a lot in common with the blues-based hard rock bands of that area, much more than the style that Judas Priest would develop into by the late 1970s.

yeah but a slayer fan could say judas priest are more steeped in blues therefore... it's just a question of where the line's drawn. you could say priest were more consistently metal than sabbath, but then again priest themselves were often quite backwards-looking and deviated into rock and blues plenty even during the '70s. to me, the important thing is that sabbath were the first band to make several songs that fit the modern definition of metal (and pushed things forward for their time just as much as, say, 'exciter' did for priest imo... actually probably moreso, people sometimes underestimate how much i think), and so they should be seen as the point where rock became metal.

 

[CiG]

I don't even think Black Sabbath were the very first, but to me the point is more that they brought it to the forefront, made it popular, were the most influential etc etc.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

actually probably moreso,

That's not a probably. Black Sabbath are far more important and definitive to the sound of heavy metal than JP are. And yes, they were the very first.

 

[Krow]

But most early heavy metal bands sounded closer to priest than sabbath... Very few bands tried to emulate sabbath at the time and most went off more in a priest/maiden direction.

 

[CiG]

Judas Priest would even agree I think.

Though it would do well to point out that Judas Priest were more influential in the most important period to the development of Heavy Metal, the late 70's and very early 80's.

 

[no country for old wainds]

i'll go with that, but i'd also argue sabbath influenced priest plenty so yknow

 

[Omni]

There are a lot of Judas Priest songs on the first few albums that are very Sabbathesque. The funniest songs by them are definitely the ones where they blatantly tried to be Queen, with "Epitaph" and "Let Us Prey/Call for the Priest" being the biggest examples.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

But most early heavy metal bands sounded closer to priest than sabbath... Very few bands tried to emulate sabbath at the time and most went off more in a priest/maiden direction.

Completely disagree. Actually the first speed/thrash metal songs can be traced all the way back to Black Sabbath and Deep Purple with songs like Fireball, Children of the Grave, Under the Sun/Everyday Comes and Goes, Symptom of the Universe, Speedking etc and i dont even need to comment on their influence on 80's doom. Some people seem to forget that Black Sabbath had a pretty wide range of sound throughout their career. Im not not downplaying JP's importance at all, they're up there with Motorhead, but nowhere near Black Sabbath level imo ... not even close. BS gave birth not only to metal, but much of its sugbengres too along with it, JP weren't the originators of ANY subgenre of metal, let alone the genre itself. They're probably the most overrated metal band of all time.

 

[Omni]

Thrash metal owes Stained Class in more than just a passing way and anyone who has ever heard it would know. Especially since early thrash and early NWOBHM have a lot of similarities.

 

[CiG]

Overrated? That's a ridiculous level of casuistry hahaha.
I think they're accurately rated.

Fast =/= Thrash, btw.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Fast =/= Thrash, btw.

yes, because that's exactly what i said.

 

[CiG]

All the songs mentioned as examples of proto-Thrash were just fast...

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

All the songs mentioned as examples of proto-Thrash were just fast...

No, they aren't "just fast" bro. Are you trying to argue with me about songs that are widely considered to be where speed metal originated from?

Fast =/= Thrash, btw.

i jsut have to go back to this for a sec. It honestly blows my mind that you would be trying to point something like that out to me I've been listening to thrash since i basically came out of my mothers womb bro. I dont think i need you to tell me what thrash is and isn't.

edit: i know its a wiki link, but just go to second paragraph in the Origins section... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_metal

 

[CiG]

Well, they certainly don't thrash in the way Thrash Metal does, so why did you cite them then if it wasn't just because they're fast for their era?

I'm not saying anything about Speed Metal, just Thrash man.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Well, they certainly don't thrash in the way Thrash Metal does

Really? Oh man, thanks for clearing that up!

 

[CiG]

Okay? So...

 

[CiG]

Explain why you cited them as proto-Thrash, perhaps?

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

So proto-thrash(or any subgenre) is supposed to thrash as hard or sound as similar to the bands that took that said sound, built upon them and defined those subgenres?

key part is "Proto" bro.

I said "the roots of speed/thrash can be traced back to those songs". Which is something that cant be argued, but yet here we are. Thrash metal basically came from/with early speed metal. And Proto thrash and proto speed metal are basically the same thing. You're statement of "well they didnt thrash as hard" is just plain ridiculous. It was the friggin early 70's! Punk wasnt even around yet(i dont think i need to tell you why this is relevant, no?). There was no definitive sound for a sub genre that DID NOT EXIST att.

 

[CiG]

Punk wasn't around in the early 70's?

I don't remember saying well they didn't thrash as hard.

I'd prefer to just call these songs you cited as proto-Heavy Metal, going any further than that and you start getting into specific traits that make a genre what it is that these songs don't have, except for speed.