Controversial opinions on metal

[HamburgerBoy]

My bad, the quote thingy only showed the first YouTube video so I assumed it was just some weird formatting thing.

Voivod is a band that has always been more conscious of sound, maybe Metallica too as they are trend-setters that many others copied. Bands like Kreator and Sodom changed production as they had more money and/or decided to adopt to new fashions, but even there it's usually not super-drastic. Albums like Extreme Aggression, Coma of Souls, and Agent Orange aren't out of line with the average Bay Area sound. A Blaze in the Northern Sky, this Marduk album, and Thy Mighty Contract don't sound remotely similar to me.

 

[CiG]

So production differences between Obsessed By Cruelty and Agent Orange aren't "super-drastic" but at the same time those black metal links I posted don't sound "remotely similar" to you? Are you just fucking with me now?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

A lot of people would argue that Obsessed By Cruelty is a first-wave black metal album. Additionally, many of the early bands will admit that the production was not an intentional aesthetic choice but rather a limitation due to lack of funds and/or recording incompetency.

You're just cherry-picking right now anyways. "See, thrash metal is totally more diverse aesthetically than black metal if you take any album from the former and limit things to a 2 year range for the latter! This totally proves my point!"

 

[CiG]

How am I cherry-picking if I say literally pick any long-standing thrash metal band and compare the production progression/change album to album?

I'm giving you the opportunity to cherry-pick.

But in the end, no, I'm not cherry-picking because I'm speaking generally about both genres. You begun this by cherry-picking a bunch of black metal bands that don't necessarily represent the average black metal band.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You're missing the point. Thrash metal bands changed sound largely because either they wanted to with more money, or because their label told them to if they wanted to keep that money. An aesthetic-based genre doesn't change sound like that; black metal band X sounds the way they do because they usually care strongly about conveying a certain sound or atmosphere. With very few exceptions (Coroner being one for example; Marky was actually explicitly credited for the aesthetic decisions of the band even though he had the least input musically), thrash metal doesn't show that kind of conscious change, unless money/technology is an issue. If you make it a fair comparison, then you need to look at early black metal bands that faced similar recording circumstances. For example, Deathcrush is raw but arguably still much clearer than a DMDS which is intentionally a little murky (albeit still much less obscure than a Transylvanian Hunger). Bathory's production quality consistently improved through his first four albums. Tom G Warrior was all about glossing things after Hellhammer.

 

[CiG]

Bathory and Celtic Frost left black metal behind at the exact same time they decided to polish their production sound and also we've already established that first wave black metal is very different band to band, in fact you yourself excluded them as potential examples by stating that they are basically evil sounding [insert other genre here].

Essentially what you're arguing is:

Black metal bands using production to create atmosphere = aesthetic choice.

Thrash metal bands using production to improve sound =/= aesthetic choice.

That makes little sense to me, as a cleaner, technically improved sound is still an aesthetic goal.

 

[The Ozzman]

People complain about HBBs railing on black metal but maybe if people stopped responding to it he would quit it? Just a thought..

 

[CiG]

People complain about HBBs railing on black metal but maybe if people stopped responding to it he would quit it? Just a thought..

I don't mind it at all. At least he's conversational about it.

 

[Krow]

People complain about HBBs railing on black metal but maybe if people stopped responding to it he would quit it? Just a thought..

As a mod I find it strange you always side with the people that are being inflammatory. I don't mind HBB or TNB at all but to constantly tell people to ignore them is missing the point I think.

 

[EspaDa]

For example.

My fav Marduk song ever! RISIIIING to once again spread his darkeeeeened wiiiiings!

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Bathory and Celtic Frost left black metal behind at the exact same time they decided to polish their production sound and also we've already established that first wave black metal is very different band to band, in fact you yourself excluded them as potential examples by stating that they are basically evil sounding [insert other genre here].

Essentially what you're arguing is:

Black metal bands using production to create atmosphere = aesthetic choice.

Thrash metal bands using production to improve sound =/= aesthetic choice.

That makes little sense to me, as a cleaner, technically improved sound is still an aesthetic goal.

aes·thet·ic
esˈTHedik/
adjective
adjective: aesthetic; adjective: esthetic

1.
concerned with beauty or the appreciation of beauty.
"the pictures give great aesthetic pleasure"
giving or designed to give pleasure through beauty; of pleasing appearance.
synonyms: artistic, tasteful, in good taste; More
graceful, elegant, exquisite, beautiful, attractive, pleasing, lovely
"several aesthetic gardens radiate from the fountain in the square"

noun
noun: aesthetic; plural noun: aesthetics; noun: esthetic; plural noun: esthetics

1.
a set of principles underlying and guiding the work of a particular artist or artistic movement.
"the Cubist aesthetic"

I'm arguing that thrash production is generally more functional than aesthetic. For most bands, it is used to emphasize the most important aspects of the style (crunchy riffs and intense drumming up front), but afaik they don't do it because they believe there is an intrinsic artistic message being conveyed in their production. That is in massive contrast to black metal.

I'm saying that if you go beyond the first-wave which is often hard to separate from thrash metal, the difference is obvious. I'm not contradicting myself when I say that first-wave black metal is defined largely due to aesthetic and image, and at the same time that it's musically built on trad/speed/thrash ideas. However, it was basically just a single unifying aesthetic (super raw recording quality), started by Venom and continued from there. For some bands like early Sodom and Kreator, poor recording quality was more an artifact of their intense musical performance and no ability to record it with clarity. This means they naturally had an aesthetic overlap with early black metal and were in fact considered part of that scene.[/i][/i]

 

[RedStorm]

hahaha

 

[RedStorm]

I like to listen to a lot of space black metal. The instrumentation usually isn't impressive and the vocals are usual decent enough to listen to. For me its the atmosphere that the music creates

 

[NeonMetalDude]

I fucking LOVE Rammstein. Best lyrics and one of the few bands whose music is actual art.

...does this pass as controversial around here ?

 

[RedStorm]

Controversial Opinion:

Slayers stuff is samey and annoying, their new album is complete shit

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

Been discussed 1000 times already. ^

 

[RedStorm]

good, we can make it the 1,001 time

 

[no country for old wainds]

there are few less samey bands in metal history than early slayer, who changed pretty dramatically from album to album for a while. so i'm gonna go ahead and assume you're talking about more recently.

 

[Satanstoenail]

I watched their new clip this morning. It's really bad.

 

[Phylactery]

there are few less samey bands in metal history than early slayer, who changed pretty dramatically from album to album for a while. so i'm gonna go ahead and assume you're talking about more recently.

This. Slayer's first 4 albums are rather different from each other. It wasn't until Seasons... that they started rehashing things they'd already done, it sounds like a mix of the previous 2 albums. So you'll have to explain yourself Redstorm, especially since you also gave "Reborn" a 9/10 in the Mixtape game. Okay, you've now edited it to 0/10, wtf?

My controversial opinion is that, as great as Reign in Blood is, it's not a 10/10 album. I just can't put it on the same level as Hell Awaits or Show No Mercy.