Controversial opinions on metal

[Black Friday]

And for the record,

SSOASS
AMOLAD
Killers
The X Factor
Piece of Mind
Powerslave
Somewhere in Time
Dance of Death
Brave New World
No Prayer for the Dying
The Number of the Beast
Fear of the Dark
s/t
Virtual XI

S/t needs to be up about 9 places.

 

[Life Sucks]

Mort is wrong. "Avant garde" as a descriptor just means that something is innovative, ahead of the pack, pushing at the limits of the norm. Obviously you can have a band under any genre heading that fulfills those criteria.

That's my view. Avant garde is not a genre. I consider bands such as Summoning and Portal to be avant garde metal.

 

[S<issors]

why argue over such trivial shit?

welcome to the internet!

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Also, people who complain that progressive metal doesn't progress towards anything don't understand that "progressive" in progressive rock came from the Progressive radio format, not some fundamental progression in the music. Progressive metal is simply the distinguishing characteristics of progressive rock (either in part or in full) transferred to metal. What people want "progressive metal" to mean is actually avant-garde metal.

Actually, progressive music is about creating evolving songs which transition through numerous moods and mindsets while still maintaining a sense of overall coherency. There's a difference between that and the pseudo-progressive music which mainly showcases gimmicky time/tempo fluctuations and flashy technical skills.

Avant-garde music has nothing to do with being progressive. It's about creating bizarre and experimental soundscapes, song structures and moods.

 

[ShredHeadJHJ]

Avant-garde music has nothing to do with being progressive. It's about creating bizarre and experimental soundscapes, song structures and moods.

There's the definition of avant-garde. It can be applied to any genre or even sub-genre. It's not a "tack on" it can be it's own genre.

Look up John Zorn & apply his theory to metal & you have avant-garde metal.

 

[Woolie Wool]

Actually, progressive music is about creating evolving songs which transition through numerous moods and mindsets while still maintaining a sense of overall coherency. There's a difference between that and the pseudo-progressive music which mainly showcases gimmicky time/tempo fluctuations and flashy technical skills.

Avant-garde music has nothing to do with being progressive. It's about creating bizarre and experimental soundscapes, song structures and moods.

The "coherency" bit is a quality judgement that has no place being in a description of a genre. Any genre can be used to make bad, incoherent music, including progressive rock. The fact is that progressive rock and its offspring progressive metal are defined, established genres with traditions dating back to the 1970s that are still more or less adhered to by modern prog bands--it is not "music that does new things" or "arty rock music that I personally like". I think Pain of Salvation's Be is an incoherent monstrosity, but it's still progressive (the "metal" part is rather more ambiguous).

And now for another controversial statement: Nevermore is an absolutely horrendous band and their music isn't one tenth as good as the first Sanctuary album is. Warrel Dane hasn't been a decent singer since about 1989.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

No. Just, no.

Yes actually. Or at least its one of their best tracks. I'd certainly place it in their top ten.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

S/t needs to be up about 9 places.

s/t is not very good. So it's got Phantom of the Opera and Remember Tomorrow, but that's about it.

 

[The Ozzman]

s/t is not very good. So it's got Phantom of the Opera and Remember Tomorrow, but that's about it.

and Iron Maiden and Running Free and Transylvania and Prowler and Charlotte the Harlot

 

[Black Friday]

and Iron Maiden and Running Free and Transylvania and Prowler and Charlotte the Harlot

Lets not forget Sanctuary. Besides, Remember Tomorrow is one of the weaker tracks.

 

[Woolie Wool]

A cover of "Freezing Moon" in the style of "Pleasure to Kill" would be interesting to hear, at the very least.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Yes it would.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

not sure what kind of response i'm going to get from this...


i thoroughly enjoy Dimmu's Death Cult Armageddon.

 

[Mort Divine]

Mort is wrong. "Avant garde" as a descriptor just means that something is innovative, ahead of the pack, pushing at the limits of the norm. Obviously you can have a band under any genre heading that fulfills those criteria.

No, what you described is progressive. Avant-garde by nature CAN NOT be tied down to any genre.

 

[Zephyrus]

not sure what kind of response i'm going to get from this...


i thoroughly enjoy Dimmu's Death Cult Armageddon.

I will agree with you, for the most part.

 

[S<issors]

No, what you described is progressive. Avant-garde by nature CAN NOT be tied down to any genre.

This probably isn't going to be a very productive argument, since we're just debating the definition of a phrase, but whatever. I apologize if this seems condescending, but I just want to take a simple approach to avoid spinning off into a debate that's more complicated than it needs to be.

"Avant garde" literally means "advance guard," as in the guys in front; in practice it's a term that indicates anything which pushes the norm or is pioneering or "cutting edge," usually (but not always) in an artistic sense. It isn't a genre of music, or a term indicating a state of "genre-less-ness," it's just a descriptor for something that pushes the limits of the norm.

So, you can have a band that recognizably plays a given style, but innovates in enough ways that they could be referred to as "avant garde."

To be honest, "progressive" has a lot more genre-label connotations than "avant garde."

 

[Vossyrus]

I enjoyed "Death Cult Armageddon" also. I think it's a harder album to appreciate because their really aren't any standout tracks...but, I think as a whole composition it is a great album.

 

[Mort Divine]

This probably isn't going to be a very productive argument, since we're just debating the definition of a phrase, but whatever. I apologize if this seems condescending, but I just want to take a simple approach to avoid spinning off into a debate that's more complicated than it needs to be.

"Avant garde" literally means "advance guard," as in the guys in front; in practice it's a term that indicates anything which pushes the norm or is pioneering or "cutting edge," usually (but not always) in an artistic sense. It isn't a genre of music, or a term indicating a state of "genre-less-ness," it's just a descriptor for something that pushes the limits of the norm.

So, you can have a band that recognizably plays a given style, but innovates in enough ways that they could be referred to as "avant garde."

To be honest, "progressive" has a lot more genre-label connotations than "avant garde."

I never stated it was a genre. It is an artistic state of being in a sense. It can NOT have any ties to musical convention, that is why John Cage is avant-garde but uneXpect isn't. That is why the first noise record/release/recording was avant-garde, yet why Merzbow isn't.

 

[Woolie Wool]

I enjoyed "Death Cult Armageddon" also. I think it's a harder album to appreciate because their really aren't any standout tracks...but, I think as a whole composition it is a great album.

To me, that album is incredibly bland and the listening experience consists of waiting for Vortex to get his occasional singing spots. The rhythm guitar work is absolutely terrible. I used to like it, but now I strongly dislike it.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I enjoyed "Death Cult Armageddon" also. I think it's a harder album to appreciate because their really aren't any standout tracks...but, I think as a whole composition it is a great album.

I think the same... though I wouldn't call it great. Merely good.