Define Death Metal and Black Metal for me please

[no country for old wainds]

Aren't Kalmah basically a slightly less cheesy Children of Bodom?

 

[murderedbysound]

Aren't Kalmah basically a slightly less cheesy Children of Bodom?

]

no there not, you and a whole bunch of other people seem to think the same thing, Swampsong completely blows that perspective out of the water, Kalmah i think are on there own as a whole.

so i guess if CF is black metal then you might as well call devildriver black metal with a mix of death metal.....

 

[Transilvanian Scotsman]

There are some Christian Black Metal bands out there, after all.

Uh... no there isn't.

They may sound like BM, but infact, can not really be BM. What makes black metal 'black'? If you see the earlier links, its the ideology that makes it black. A fundamental ideal is being against Judaism and Christianity.

I'll have a go at defining Black Metal: Ideology is more important to consider when making Black than Death metal. Black metal's purpose is to communicate the bands ideals. Nihilism being a main ideal for earlier BM, but later times saw the creation of BM bands becoming National-Socialistic.
The guitar is melodic, often simple, tremolo picking creating a dark atmosphere. Most black metal is fast in tempo, with odd tracks being slow - mid tempo. The drumming is rhythmic, generally blast beats, and accordingly fast paced to match the guitar. Unlike Death metal, Black metal is rarely as chaotic, and has far less time signature changes.
Vocals are screams. The main function being to communiate the ideals. You can't fail to notice the vocals since they are disharmonious. Best example being Burzum.

Song/Lyric structure is/should be narrative, as opposed to cyclic (verse chorus verse). The music is accordingly structured narratively. You wont tend to hear a verse with 1 riff, being the riff being used again for another verse as you would hear in pop music and some death.

Ok, thats the best i can do. But, since the other other bm fans didnt want to, i can say i tried.

SoulSlaughter, you said Black was heavily influenced by Death Metal... I wish to differ. Black metal was a term coined by Venom whom started in the late 70's, but did not 'create' the term until '80 or '81 (cant remember). That was prior to ANY death metal release. Slayer were influenced by Venom, and release their first in '82. If you define Slayer as Death (as Anus.com does) then really Black metal influenced Death.
The 2nd wave of Black Metal was far more influenced by the likes of Venom, Bathory etc. Consider Mayhem as 2nd wave, since they did not have a release until '87, but they formed in '84. Once again, it seems near on impossible that Black was formed from Death metal.

 

[polarity]

Venom aren't and never were black metal, in my opinion.

 

[CorpseEater666]

True Black Metal is the following

Naragoth
Emperor
Mayhem
Beherit
Bathory
Darkthrone
Immortal
Mercyful Fate
Early Venom
Graveland
Nargaroth



And all of the stuff about National Socalist Black Metal, it only exsits in the white supremacist underground movement Bands like: Acirema · Aryan Tormentor · Before God · Birkenau · Blutkrieg · Conquest Dread Moon · Gestapo SS · Granulosum · Grom · Herrenvolk · I Shalt Become · Infernal Hatred ·Katharia Misein · Open Grave · Order from Chaos · Pantheon · Shadowthrone · Vagrant the Noachian · Veltmacht (a.k.a.Weltmacht)

 

[Thor Kjaer-Olsen]

Soulslaughter, you are truely retarded, if you just said "i don't like black metal" that would be fine. Firstly, there is a huge difference between minimalism and simplicity, black metal being minimalism. Dimmu while have having black metal roots are not black metal, they are symphonic metal. Cradle of Filth are not and have never been a blackmetal band, any one who says they are are as ignorant on the subject as you. Using synths goes astray from what black metal is, i.e. listen to immortal. Just cause i would really like to make the point, if Cradle of Filth sound like black metal (mayhem, burzum, darkthrone, immortal, emperor...etc) then i must be fucking unable to hear a fucking sound.
As for the original question asked, death metal generally has lower growls as opposed to high screams in blackmetal. Blackmetal generally has higher tuning on the guitars (e tuning, for those of you who play an instrument) and death metal depending if its swedish, american (floridian, new york) etc uses from D to B tuning respectively. Black metal generally has very anti-judeo-christian ideolism and usually no guitar solos. My knowledge on what Blackmetal is is fairly limited, and i am bound to have made mistakes, anyone want to correct me? (except retards like soulslaughter, who don't know what they are talking about and just say they are either "good" or "bad" depending on what they like).
One more time, Cradel of Filth are not black metal. never have been.
For Iced in Flames if you want to hear some black metal check out: Immortal, Mayhem, Burzum, Emperor, Darkthrone and some good death metal would be Morbid Angel, Suffocation, Monstrosity etc. Just hear a few songs and you should be able to tell the difference.

 

[Transilvanian Scotsman]

True Black Metal is the following

Naragoth
Emperor
Mayhem
Beherit
Bathory
Darkthrone
Immortal
Mercyful Fate
Early Venom
Graveland
Nargaroth

And all of the stuff about National Socalist Black Metal, it only exsits in the white supremacist underground movement Bands like: Acirema · Aryan Tormentor · Before God · Birkenau · Blutkrieg · Conquest Dread Moon · Gestapo SS · Granulosum · Grom · Herrenvolk · I Shalt Become · Infernal Hatred ·Katharia Misein · Open Grave · Order from Chaos · Pantheon · Shadowthrone · Vagrant the Noachian · Veltmacht (a.k.a.Weltmacht)

You forgot Nokturnal Mortum, they are signed to Heathen Front, probably one of the biggest names in NSBM. Also a fairly big name in just BM, not as underground as those you mentioned above, imo. But like I said, later times saw its creation. The earlier bands being based on nihilistic ideals. Thats not saying that all later bands became NS.
Secondly, Burzum became NS, but I'm not entirely sure if that was pre-jail time. I cant read Norwegian, so cant make out if Filosofem is NS (made pre-jail time, but released from inside??). Obviously, his stuff he released whilst inside is not bm.

 

[Henrik Main]

I for one wouldn't label Burzum as NSBM. His lyrics do not include such political messages (maybe metaphorical, but still).

CorpseEater, that list of yours is probably going to be flamed a lot. Where are bands like Gontyna Kry, War 88, Veles, Lord Wind and others?

 

[no country for old wainds]

Here's a better list: Wolfnacht, The Shadow Order, Fullmoon, Aryan Blood, Nokturnal Mortum, Eisenwinter, Forgot, Ad Hominem, Griffar, Galgenberg, Ohtar, Thor's Hammer, Astrofaes, Legion of Doom, Forest, Stutthof, Thallium, Selbstmord, Branikald, Thesyre

Lord Wind rules but I don't think it can be called NSBM.

 

[Black Raven]

Why don't you include Graveland in that list?

 

[Black Raven]

And what about Absurd, Hate Forest and Thunderbolt? All very well known bands.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I don't like Absurd or Hate Forest. Thunderbolt are a band I'm going to be checking out soon.

 

[Black Raven]

You should, they're very good!

 

[no country for old wainds]

Why don't you include Graveland in that list?

Although they have expressed NS views, Graveland are more of a Pagan band. If they were to be categorised as NSBM I would certainly include them.

 

[Black Raven]

They (he) should be catogorized as such. Rob Darken fully endorses the NS ideology. He has recorded a split cd with Honour and a quick glance at his site (articles, links) should tell you enough.

 

[Mutilated1]

my 2 cents...

Cradle Of Filth, is the more commercial end of the black metal spectrum but its still black metal no matter how much the elitist(s) would try and deny it. Still "teen-angsty gothrock" is a pretty accurate label for their music if you ask me. In fact I think thats a pretty good description for most black metal, but thats just me. I don't care a lot for black metal really anyway.

To put it simply the difference(s) in Black Metal and Death Metal, are a few:

Black Metal - lyrical subject matter predominately composed of satan, evil, black majick, and occultism

Death Metal - lyrical subject matter may include satanism, but generally its not the main theme. Death, destruction, violent reality are prefered themes to mystical evil nonsense.

Black Metal - Musically more varied than death metal. Often described as 'symphonic' or 'atmospheric', though at times may be quite brutal.

Death Metal - Musically has no aspirations of being 'atmospheric' at all. There may be the occasional soft cliche' intro, but generally Death Metal is about endurance, brutality, and just being as heavy and intense as possible.

Black Metal - Corpsepaint, Armor, Firebreathing, and goth-faggotry

Death Metal - Dirty Blue Jeans, Obscure Band Tshirts, body-odor, no-makeup ever

But really its not like you can just throw bands into one category or the other, because theres a lot of bands that fall somewhere in between the two, but if you ignore the elitists, I think that pretty much sums up the main differences.

 

[no country for old wainds]

They (he) should be catogorized as such. Rob Darken fully endorses the NS ideology. He has recorded a split cd with Honour and a quick glance at his site (articles, links) should tell you enough.

I'm aware of this, I know he fully endorses it, I'm just saying that his music in Graveland is more Pagan-based.

 

[ShadowOfDeath]

i'm the idiot? you're trying to convince people all black metal is talented. all the black metal albums i've heard are a complete blur from start to finish (albums from demoncy, bathory, ancient, emperor, dark funeral, venom, cradle of filth; i'm sure there are plenty more). i really feel embarassed when people learn that black metal was highly influenced by death metal. oohhh, am i supposed to be scared when i listen to a bruise on the silent moon? i'm trembling with fear.

makeup shouldn't be part of any metal band except retarded 80's hair bands. i mean, i'm so shocked by black metallers black makeup that i went and soiled myself.

(at least death metal bands and fans can say their music is not about image).

just because black metal is the best thing norway could come up with, don't take it out on true metalheads. i'll say this though, black metal is good for opposing the growing christianity in norway as well as keeping up with norse mythology. so i respect black metal bands values, but the music is shit, except for dimmu borgir and marduk. suggest some black metal bands like them, and maybe, i'll change my mind. but even they don't come close to death metal.

and i'll be sure to blast cradle of filth in my car, so that people will know that i'm dark, disturbed, and will resort to wican magick if they fuck with me. so i guess a lot of black metal bands have no idea of norse religion. cthulhu is coming for my enemies. watch out, i might use wicca with stupid bitchy goth girls to call cthulhu on you.

ooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[Black Raven]

I'm aware of this, I know he fully endorses it, I'm just saying that his music in Graveland is more Pagan-based.

NSBM is not really about a certain style within Black Metal I think. Absurd doesn't sound like Nokturnal Mortum. It's the ideology that makes it NSBM.

 

[SoulSlaughter]

keep the coupon. maybe it was fate that led you to find it.