Discussing leaks

[TheCrackedJack]

I think it does boil down to morals, rather than legality. Quoting the law won't get you anywhere in this subject, because everyone breaks the law all the time. By speeding, jumping red lights, talking on the cellphone while driving. Yes, they can have disastrous effects especially if you kill someone while doing such a thing, but still, everyone does it. The same goes for music. If we had to abide perfectly by the law, you would be very, very restricted on how and when you can play the music you yourself have bought. You wouldn't be able to rip it to put on your pc for your own pleasure. I don't think you'd be able to play it in front of assemblies, nor should you be able to find user tabs, or cover the music in front of assemblies. Does everybody abide by such rules? I don't think so. So I'd rather have someone arguing that piracy is wrong because it is immoral than because it is illegal. Maybe then, you'd be able to convince the others about it.

I just want to say, great post there. I totally agree.

Stealing digital music is like stealing cable (to continue the TV metaphor). You ARE taking something that you did NOT pay for. Stop justifying it by getting into arguments about semantics: no, it's not a physical thing you're stealing. It's called "Intellectual Property". This is why IDEAS can be stolen, and many companies have all sorts of legal documents that outline how you will be in trouble if you share these ideas with other folks after you leave. Even though the ideas will still be at the original company. What kind of an idiot thinks that only physical things can be stolen at a detriment to the person who originally owned it?

Might as well touch on this as well. Since, I love punching holes in your Swiss Cheese style arguments. I touched on what the word take means before, which you improperly used there.

Your right, ideas can be stolen. And that's a grey area. If Ben Franklin was my neighbor back in the day, would I be wrong if I was able to replicate his methods by myself (IE steal his idea) and keep it to myself and just use it on my ranch? In other words, not try to take credit and profit from his ideas, leaving him be? Stealing ideas becomes wrong and illegal when you try to profit on those ideas by not giving compensation. The music equivelant of that would be making copies of the cd and then trying to sell the copies for a profit. Only an idiot wouldn't make the distinction.

 

[BefriendedUnit]

No, your argument has no basis because you're a spoiled fucking brat for having this opinion.

 

[Frosties]

AND PS. CD's also aren't the PRIMARY way bands make money. So, oops on that argument. It's those expensive T-shirts, and memorabilia sold at shows along with concert ticket sales, and any commercial endorsements the band or members may have.

The way I look at it, without cd's, you don't have the other stuff.

Let's say for every 100 albums Opeth sells, they get one free guitar. While according to record sales, lets say they deserve 20 free guitars, when in reality they deserve much more because of the people who didn't pay for the album.
So, while not directly affecting, it still is crucial for the band to make a living.

Another point, is that it's in the FANS interest as well to buy cd's - if they do, the label sees what a successful band they have, and therefore put more money into the band, whether it's merch, longer/bigger tours, more studio time and freedom, better cd packages... the list doesn't end.

 

[Death_To_False_Metal]

Are you serious kid? You must be joking, right? To say that the majority of file sharing comes from the West is downright ignorant. You make broad generalizations buddy, and I sure hope you can back up your "facts" with real numbers and sources. PLEASE back up your so called facts. I would love to see them.

I realize that computers and electronics are NOT a commodity, but seriously kid, don't come onto an internet forum (which you accessed via your computer) and start spouting off shit. I worked my ass off to buy my computer, pay for my internet service and buy my CD's. I never claimed to support either side of this argument, I just felt I had to call you out on your bullshit.

Please, by all means, prove me wrong. Give me at least some faith in our future generations.

Only 800 Millions people live the western lifestyle, that leaves us with 5,7 billion people not thinking about buying GTA IV or not.

Face the reality of our world and please get back to me after your epiphany.

Kid.

 

[Volt]

You do know that without labels, 90% of metal as we know it would die out, right?
Bands need labels. Yes, they do take more money than they should. Yes the artist should get more money than they do.
But bands wouldn't be able to afford the studio time to record albums, let alone go touring. Not every band is Radiohead. Anathema has had huge problems since they've been dropped from the label (or it went bankrupt or whatever, not the point). Even though Opeth are popular in the underground metal scene, they are still lightyears from being household names like Radiohead or Nine Inch Nails. Mikael wouldn't even have money to pay the other bandmates, let alone even feed his family, if Opeth weren't signed to a label.
It's ridiculous that you think that Opeth just "magically" received their "one of the best metal acts" title out of nowhere - it's thanks to label's promotional work and tours when they were an unknown band.

Also, again, just because on this forum Opeth has hardcore fans, doesn't mean that everyone will buy the album. Probably most people wont, even. There is such a thing as a casual listener, who prefers not to spend money on albums.

Finally, I don't think you can accurately presume Mike's stance on any of this. I can just as much assume that he thinks that any "real" fan would have some patience for the band that they supposedly "love" and listen to the album the way it was meant to by the band. Just because you wouldn't give a shit if a product you worked so hard for to be presented as good as it can be is leaked on the net, doesn't mean he doesn't care. He can just as well believe anyone who doesn't buy the album should have knives stabbed in their eyes.

My point with bringing up Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails is that there are options to avoid leaks. Who says Opeth have to change anything they are doing? If Roadrunner just adapted a different way of distributing the albums they put out than the normal, leak prone method, they could start to fix it.
And you are right, I can't presume Mike's views on this, but when you think about it, the only reason the album isn't already out if for marketing purposes and to make more money. The overall problem with all of this is the record companies themselves, and if the band wants to be pissed about leaks, they should be angry at the people in charge of their labels who are failing to see that times, and methods of releasing albums are changing.

 

[Hellequin]

My point with bringing up Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails is that there are options to avoid leaks. Who says Opeth have to change anything they are doing? If Roadrunner just adapted a different way of distributing the albums they put out than the normal, leak prone method, they could start to fix it.
And you are right, I can't presume Mike's views on this, but when you think about it, the only reason the album isn't already out if for marketing purposes and to make more money. The overall problem with all of this is the record companies themselves, and if the band wants to be pissed about leaks, they should be angry at the people in charge of their labels who are failing to see that times, and methods of releasing albums are changing.

This is brilliant. I agree with you, there is very little the band can actually do. My personal view is that if you think the music is good then you will spend the big bucks to go see the live shows. The bands see very little of CD revenue anyway...

I've been to every opeth concert in my city, all four of them, and am considering flying to another one cause they aren't coming to my city on this US tour. Most band are completely worthless live and they don't deserve me paying to see their concerts.

The albums are a sort of marketing for the concerts.

The only albums I have bought in the last five years are Opeths 5.1 mixes and Opeths DVDs.

 

[BefriendedUnit]

if the band wants to be pissed about leaks, they should be angry at the people in charge of their labels who are failing to see that times, and methods of releasing albums are changing.

I can't say I agree with this fully (although I do with the rest of it). In this information age, anything can be leaked, especially if it's highly anticipated. The labels can absolutely take action to prevent this from happening, but in the end it comes down to a choice that fans have to make.

 

[old user1]

I can't say I agree with this fully (although I do with the rest of it). In this information age, anything can be leaked, especially if it's highly anticipated. The labels can absolutely take action to prevent this from happening, but in the end it comes down to a choice that fans have to make.

I love Opeth. Simple. I love their music. It has helped me through many hard times in my life. I feel an emotional connection with the things that they write.

I expect that many of the people on here feel the same way. Quite frankly, faced with the option to hear the new material early, I can't blame anyone for getting the leak.

It's about the emotion, not the package. I will likely end up buying the thing from iTunes when it comes out. But we all have to accept the fact that the CD is a dead format. If labels can't deal with this, they will die off.

Love,

Rorix

 

[BefriendedUnit]

You don't believe the band themselves would be offended by your possession to the unreleased album? The OP had an interview with Mikael and was moved to make this thread. It's my general impression that the leak is offensive. The board that leaked the new album's entire purpose, even mantra, was "when's it gonna leak?" "leak that shit" and so on and so on. And when it WAS leaked, they wanted it accessible to EVERYONE. There was a culture around the necessity to hear the album a few months early, and then spread it over the Internet. If you love the band so much, why would you create perpetuate a leak? Is that a case of fan extremism, where one worships the material but forgets what the band actually cares about?

(this doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion, I'm just wondering what yours is)

 

[dew]

Mikael actually played the album for people at private events multiple times, so it's not like he's got a huge problem with people hearing it early. I'm sure he'd prefer it if people got the full experience with the release and the album art, though, and people downloading a CD months before it's supposed to release is rarely something they'd prefer.

I will tell you, though, that I for one was more likely to see them live after hearing what was released (HA live, Porcelain Heart, Lotus Eater). Ghost Reveries was overall disappointing, IMO, and many had questions about the significant lineup changes. I ordered the ticket to one of the Progressive Nation shows after hearing them.

 

[BefriendedUnit]

But those at the private events were (I assume) reviewers, friends of the band, etc., and were not (I assume again) given copies of the album itself. There's a difference between a private movie screening and getting the DVD early. This is not so much about hearing it just once, and it's supposed to be a slightly harder album to digest, as it is about possessing the material.

 

[mr_cellotape]

Opeth shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them. I accidently downloaded a song of theirs years ago from a filesharing host and have bought all their albums up to this date.

Substitute "Opeth" with "Record companies" and I agree with you completely. The only reason I've bought 7 Opeth albums and attended 4 live shows is because one day, 7 or 8 years ago, I downloaded a copy of Still Live. The music industry wants to have its cake and eat it too. You can't demonise illegal downloading and complain about how much its hurting the industry, whilst ignoring the fact that illegal downloads have exposed their bands to a wider audience.

 

[uber-engl]

try to think about this.
----
why should some artists get millions/or some thousands just for the two months spent in writing and recording one record?...
go on tour, being a musician is a job nowadays...if you dont wannt to make money with your music/art dont record it...and just play along with your buddys at local
bars (like i do.. ) and let "fans" donwload your musik for free

opeth is buissnes for mike and the other guys, they get a paycheck from the recordcompany every month ...thats enouth for living and having a good life - want some prs privat stock guitars? well ... go on tour...

and just with the recordcompanys paycheck and 8 moths touring they have enouth money to spent+quite lot of free time+fun on the road

and dont fool yourself, getting on a label is easy if your
a) born as a musician aka creative
b) are willing to devote all of your sparetime to your band
(seeing it as a job = 40h a week of trying to get the industry knowing you)

it would be cool as hell if BMW gives me 3% for every part they use in every single car they build i have construced on pc---but guess what,i dont...i get money for doing my job by constructing parts on pc (recording a record) and working 40h a week (go on tour)... why should those two industries differ anymore?

cd`s sould be a bonus for the fan (moneywise for the r.comapany and band), and not the main focus ...
----
thats just a ramdom idea from me floating in my mind rigth now ... what do you guys think?

^ i have seen 4 shows and have 2cds,dvd, and one Lp thats ~180€; found them on the internet...

 

[Gëist]

I love Opeth. Simple. I love their music. It has helped me through many hard times in my life. I feel an emotional connection with the things that they write.

I expect that many of the people on here feel the same way. Quite frankly, faced with the option to hear the new material early, I can't blame anyone for getting the leak.

It's about the emotion, not the package. I will likely end up buying the thing from iTunes when it comes out. But we all have to accept the fact that the CD is a dead format. If labels can't deal with this, they will die off.

Love,

Rorix

Just accept that for some people like me, vision and sound are indivisible - at least having the view is a real plus. As I said earlier, CD won't die, as well as vinyl never really died.

 

[pyr0rrzzz]

opeth is buissnes for mike and the other guys, they get a paycheck from the recordcompany every month ...thats enouth for living and having a good life

IIRC they get ~1000 $ per month which isn't much, especially not in Sweden, I think.

 

[Frosties]

And you are right, I can't presume Mike's views on this, but when you think about it, the only reason the album isn't already out if for marketing purposes and to make more money. The overall problem with all of this is the record companies themselves, and if the band wants to be pissed about leaks, they should be angry at the people in charge of their labels who are failing to see that times, and methods of releasing albums are changing.

Well, I'm pretty sure that record companies are trying to avoid these leaks as much as possible. And you are right on one point - some other way to distribute music should be found, some kind of digital way, and the record labels should be pushing this. I don't know, maybe they are working on something. But until that day, any "damage" you're trying to do to the labels is hurting the bands you love as well.

This is brilliant. I agree with you, there is very little the band can actually do. My personal view is that if you think the music is good then you will spend the big bucks to go see the live shows. The bands see very little of CD revenue anyway...

I've been to every opeth concert in my city, all four of them, and am considering flying to another one cause they aren't coming to my city on this US tour. Most band are completely worthless live and they don't deserve me paying to see their concerts.

The albums are a sort of marketing for the concerts.

Good for you. I've also been to every Opeth show in my country. All............. one of them. The fact is that bands do not play everywhere in the world. Just because they make less money when you buy a cd than a concert ticket, doesn't mean they don't deserve that money as well.
Look at bands like Agalloch or Summoning, bands that have limited (if any) touring schedules. What, would you not buy anything of theirs (assuming you like them, of course) just because they don't play in your area? That's ridiculously small minded.

and dont fool yourself, getting on a label is easy if your
a) born as a musician aka creative
b) are willing to devote all of your sparetime to your band
(seeing it as a job = 40h a week of trying to get the industry knowing you)

You can't be that naive, can you? In most bands case, it takes years to release their first album, and sometimes 5-10 years before they can live completely off of their music. What are they supposed to do in the meantime? Starve?

And while it may be easy for you to spend 8 months away from you wife and children, I don't think it's that way for everyone.


Too many people think that they deserve to have all the albums that they want, as if the musician owes it to them. "Why should I buy it? It's expensive, I've got better things to spend on, and why shouldn't I download it? I mean, I'm a fan. That gives me every right to steal".
I can't belive that I'm lecturing people who are probably older than me on postponement of gratification.

 

[twan]

I don't really get what all the fuzz is about. Ok, discussing the album when it's clearly not available yet on the band's own forum is a bit not done but hey.. i downloaded the album already. Also got it pre-ordered but i didn't want to wait. Yes, i've been waiting for it for a long time, but why wait a few days longer when you can listen to it already?

I don't feel more special when i have the cd, with the booklet and all.. it's about the music not the package. Crappy music in a cool package remains crappy.

I buy cd's to have a collection where i can look back to and see my past in music. Also to "have" the collection. I like to support the bands i like for the reason that when i don't buy cd's they might never release another cd but to fully prohibit sharing music?? I know i have discovered much bands through downloading where i've eventually bought the cd's if i had money to spare. I know there are a lot of people that don't buy the albums but i think if you can push some people over the edge to eventually buy it, it accomplishes something.

People that don't want to spend the money, will never do..

 

[Lachybob]

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[Volt]

Ok, lets see if we can put it into perspective for some people in a way theyll understand. Downloading leaks is like cummin before both parties are satisfied. Sure your happy, but your enjoyment is premature. Then talking about how good it was for you to them is just rubbin it in and pissin them off until you finally getting around to finishing the job (if you ever do)

Wow, way to prove to be a retard.

If you really want to use an analogy like this, let me fix it. Downloading a leak is like cumming when the other party came like, 2 months ago, and some other asshole put a blindfold over your eyes so you can't see it. The third party also filmed your partner's O face, and they are withholding the tape from you until they feel they can make the most money possible when they decide to sell it to you.

 

[Lachybob]

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