Lachybob
Member
I apologize for the last few posts for anyone who saw them, long story involving my vengeful ex, sure yous can imagine. Anyways sorry again
Discussing leaks
- Thread starter Russell
- Start date
Is TheCrackedJack gone now, after "punching holes" in my arguments?
Good.
Look, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you are manipulating meaning in order to take advantage of a "grey area" that, truly, isn't that grey when you think about it. Whether you actually want to abide by morality is the point. If you can convince yourself that illegal downloading isn't stealing, you are, I think, pretty morally bankrupt. While you take nothing away, you take for yourself what was never yours. You are taking something that someone expects to be paid for, band, label, or otherwise. Should they be paid for it? I think so. But that's me. Old school, I guess.
When I was a kid (hell, even now), I would discover new music by reading about it, hearing a friend describe it, hearing it on the radio, or maybe hearing a friend play it for me. But most of the time, I'd get an inkling I'd like to buy an album, plunk down the money, and hope like hell it was good. I didn't always succeed, but that was part of the journey. Not all the tracks were even good, but you'd buy an album for 3 or 4 really good songs, you know? And you sort of expected that, and it was okay. But now, people have this sense of entitlement that is completely unwarranted. It's attitudes like this that no longer give bands a chance to develop like they used to. Yeah, record companies changed, but so did listeners.
I also think that current distribution methods are outmoded. It is time for a change. But I'm not a nihilist or anarchist. I'll continue to support bands I like (or whose music I want to own) by legally purchasing their music. I'll go to a few shows, buy some merch. If bands like NIN and Radiohead want to try something new, I'm down with that, and applaud it. But I'm going to do what I know is right, and not have to develop some complicated argument that twists meaning in order to save me a measly few dollars, when the truth is so clear.
Good.
Look, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you are manipulating meaning in order to take advantage of a "grey area" that, truly, isn't that grey when you think about it. Whether you actually want to abide by morality is the point. If you can convince yourself that illegal downloading isn't stealing, you are, I think, pretty morally bankrupt. While you take nothing away, you take for yourself what was never yours. You are taking something that someone expects to be paid for, band, label, or otherwise. Should they be paid for it? I think so. But that's me. Old school, I guess.
When I was a kid (hell, even now), I would discover new music by reading about it, hearing a friend describe it, hearing it on the radio, or maybe hearing a friend play it for me. But most of the time, I'd get an inkling I'd like to buy an album, plunk down the money, and hope like hell it was good. I didn't always succeed, but that was part of the journey. Not all the tracks were even good, but you'd buy an album for 3 or 4 really good songs, you know? And you sort of expected that, and it was okay. But now, people have this sense of entitlement that is completely unwarranted. It's attitudes like this that no longer give bands a chance to develop like they used to. Yeah, record companies changed, but so did listeners.
I also think that current distribution methods are outmoded. It is time for a change. But I'm not a nihilist or anarchist. I'll continue to support bands I like (or whose music I want to own) by legally purchasing their music. I'll go to a few shows, buy some merch. If bands like NIN and Radiohead want to try something new, I'm down with that, and applaud it. But I'm going to do what I know is right, and not have to develop some complicated argument that twists meaning in order to save me a measly few dollars, when the truth is so clear.
Lachybob
Member
^ good points. People have different morals and ethics, and will abide by what they think is right. In the long run people are just gonna do whatever they feel they should, whether its right or not, based on their own morals. Theres no need for people to manipulate peoples arguements to suit their own, because in the long run your not changing anyones opinions. Basically we are going to go back and forth with people who have downloaded music illegally justifying it to those who havent, and those who havent trying to guilt those who clearly arent gonna feel guilty.
I completely agree. Our culture here (very Mediterranean) has a set of common ideologies and my country is essentially a haven for piracy. Anyone you know who's got a computer has 95% of his software downloaded illegally or copied. Same thing is common to most Mediterranean cultures I think. It's difficult to talk about morals, because well, different cultures do give rise to different values. In a certain sense, it is "more acceptable" to the local people to download music and software illegally over here.
Although earlier I said it would be better to try and convince me by arguing about morals rather than law, it's actually almost as difficult. People do come with different values, and it's almost impossible to convince someone that their set of moral values are wrong, because it is something semi-innate, almost hardcoded into your brain after years of cultural and circumstantial influence.
So I think the only way not to argue about this is simply by not talking about it. Yes i'm quite a Skepticist.
Over here, Malta, you don't find a single Opeth cd. I'm not exaggerating. Not a damn single one. At least last time I looked. The market is small with only 400,000 people, and most people listen to commercial music anyway. The number of Maltese fans of Opeth is small but growing. I remember when 4 or 5 years ago, the fans consisted of me and something like 3 or 4 others. I'm not joking. So there wouldn't have been any exposure to Opeth without piracy back then. That's why there's two sides of the story. Since then I've seen them live (obviously having to go abroad to do so) and spread the word the best I can.
blade-bunny
Member
- Mar 26, 2008
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Lachybob
Member
Not to mention that most online stores a few years back wouldnt send overseas, as paying for things online wasnt implementd into almost everything at that stage
I have purchased all Opeth albums, but not before listening to their leaks extensively. I don't like buyer's remorse, so leaks help out with that. In a way, leaks have made me buy Opeth music.
Kir-ir-Bannog
...no ordinary rabbit
not that i advocate leakage, but why on earth have RR waited so long to release this. We have to wait another month and this was leaked at least a week ago.
Surely the best thing to do is release as soon as possible, minimising piracy. The longer people have to wait, the more likely they will give in and download the leaked album. It makes no sense.
can anyone explain why record companies wait so long to release? its not as if it hasn't been mastered or the artwork hasn't been decided is it???
Surely the best thing to do is release as soon as possible, minimising piracy. The longer people have to wait, the more likely they will give in and download the leaked album. It makes no sense.
can anyone explain why record companies wait so long to release? its not as if it hasn't been mastered or the artwork hasn't been decided is it???
Well if it wasnt for a download of "Demon Of The Fall" I might not have discovered them years ago. I've bought all of their shit since. Remember how hard it used to be to get Opeth cd's in the US? .... (it sucked)
File sharing made this my favorite band when they only played about 2-5 shows per album release. I think Mike can thank file sharing for quite a bit of their current sucess.
File sharing made this my favorite band when they only played about 2-5 shows per album release. I think Mike can thank file sharing for quite a bit of their current sucess.
What you've just described is logically. 'Logic' and 'the music industry business model' are as diametrically opposed as two things can possibly be.
Before albums were leaked over the internet, the demand for - and hype over - an album would create significant media attention that would increase sales. Stupidly, record companies haven't adapted to the current situation where demand and hype simply results in a leaked record. And they're stuck firmly in the denial stage if they think that they can change that.
Actually I only learned about Agalloch a couple weeks ago and do like them...
How can pandora.com play all its songs, without commercials, for free? Its marketing for the band. I would have never heard of Opeth had my friend BURNED me their CD. Since then (after I downloaded all their old stuff) I tell all of my friends about my favorite band (Opeth) that no one had heard of. My room is entirely draped in Opeth paraphernalia and I have introduced at least 10 people to Opeth. All of whom spend the $50+ to go to concerts and purchase shirts and stuff. Even my Ex-girlfriend bought GR. What I am getting at is that if a band has talent (very rare nowadays) they will continue to get more popular.
I have never heard Opeth on the radio and if someone told me I had to pay $15 for a cd of a band I had never heard of, except for the 30 second amazon preview, I would say they are crazy.
Back to the point, if people are so excited for the new CD they are checking every day for a leak then I would say those people are going to go to shows, buy murch., tell all of their friends about Opeth, put stickers on their car, and possibly buy the CD. I think that the new CD is brilliant. It will generate a larger ever growing fan base and Opeth will be able to draw larger concerts, get paid more to tour, have more time to write new music, ect... I assume that at some point this will come out in 5.1 and the day it does I will buy it. What is the point of not listening to the music if its out? Thats like waiting in a traffic jam when the lane next to you is completely open. Your going to get to your destination either way why wait?
I bought concert tickets because I am reassured that it will still be a good concert. Plus going to an Opeth concert without having listened and re listened to the material takes a lot of enjoyment out of it for me. I like to be able to anticipate the nuances of the music...
Just like any other product in order to get the CD on the shelves of all of the stores on the same day there are a lot of logistics. Leaks usually occur when the cd is being mass produced or at any stage between then and the distriubution of the album... so the company can't release it any earlier or it will just get leaked earlier. This also helps give them time to publish critics reviews and increase marketing...
Kir-ir-Bannog
...no ordinary rabbit
its a good enough answer as any i suppose, hype is the main marketing element these days. i dont think logistics has any bearing really. A company like RR should have their logistics nailed down pretty tight. this album was mastered and artwork advertised 2 months ago.
I think they waited too long in this case and got their timing wrong. It should be manufactured and out in the stores within 2 weeks, not 6-7. yes, it would still leak, but there is less time for people to wait...
I wonder how responsible the reviewers are for leaks? I mean the people who get sent the promo way before release.
Look, I really don't want to argue with you and I apologize if I insulted you at all. But I'm really offended by the way you don't listen to what I'm saying. I have said time and time again, that I never intended to prove downloading isn't morally wrong or said that I partake in it. Only that we are talking about something that is different from taking a cd from a store. Why you continue to ignore that fact and my argument and instead just call me morally corrupt, I can't understand.
Please do me one favor and I will not bother you anymore. Answer these questions for me, with a Yes or No answer, nothing else. I'd just like to know where you stand. Please note they are hypothetical questions only.
1. I see my neighbor working on a new invention. I go over and we talk about sports and how he intends to start a business with a new product and make a lot money. While we are talking I see the product in the background and figure out how he put it together. Now If I go out on my own and build this product for myself to keep at home (IE, steal his idea and don't buy the product from him) and don't try to profit from it, am I wrong?
2. My mother buys a CD from Amazon. She listens to and figures I might like, so she makes me a copy from hers and gives it to me the next time I visit. Is she wrong for not buying another copy?
3. A free single from a band is released for a week only. I totally forget about this and now it's only available for 1 dollar on Itunes. Am I wrong to download this free from a torrent site?
4. I really want the upcoming Season 4 of Lost on Blu-Ray Hi-Def. I don't think or don't want to shell out the money for a BD player, however. So, instead I DVR the show in HD and remove the commercials, instead of buying on Itunes or getting a HD player. Am I wrong?
5. I buy a CD from Japan and it's going to take awhile to have it reach my doorstep. Now, I find a quick download of the album online. Am I wrong to download it to my computer, although I'm going to do the same thing when I get the actual disk in my hands?
I'm only trying to get people to think buy giving these examples, and in my past posts. And I don't appreciate being talked to like some criminal. The world is a huge grey area. Is killing a criminal during wartime wrong, maybe even getting honored for it in the process? Is murdering the same person while he in his apartment during non-wartime wrong? Laws would have different things to say about that. But, there's no one morally right or wrong answer. Some would say all war is despicable and the soldiers are no different from criminals. Others call them heroes. Some people would say George Bush is a criminal for his action and should be jailed. Others see him as a hero. The point is that we each have different ideas of morally just actions and non-morally just actions. I hope we can all appreciate and respect that.
The Poona of Peshwa
Blood Glutton
Kir-ir-Bannog
...no ordinary rabbit
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