Do you like Opeth?

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Thrash is still thrash and if some DM band thrashes out the riffs they are thrash influenced. By the same token, if Opeth takes their style of metal, twists in a bit of Floydesque mood and sings about death, they can be considered death metal.

Thrash influence does not make a band death metal, just like Black Sabbath influence does not make a band doom metal. Opeth strays away too much from the original formula to be considered a death metal band. Countless of bands are influenced by 2 and even 3 genres at the same time, even so the music has to be put on a scale and analyzed in order to categorize the music correctly.

Believe what you want anyway, I don't care about this type of discussion.

Talking about comparisons I think that if you compare a song like Dehumanized by Theory in Practice with Wreath by Opeth the differences will become rather clear. Theory in Practice is DM but Opeth, even in their heaviest, is not.

This is a nice way to put it.

 

[razoredge]

I didnt say or imply thrash influence makes a band death metal, I said its influence is present. Why does music have to be put on a scale and analyzed in order to categorized correctly? I didnt think it was that complicated. So what category do you put Opeth in ?

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

I didnt say or imply thrash influence makes a band death metal, I said its influence is present.

I may have over-analyzed your statement. I figured since you said there was thrash influence you were implying they were a death metal band 'cause of that.

Why does music have to be put on a scale and analyzed in order to categorized correctly?

Because the genre lines can get a bit blurry and having a black and white way of thinking is sometimes is not good enough. Opeth is one of these cases. Other bands I could mention that have a similar problem are early Aeternus, later Death, Dawn and to a lesser degree Dissection.

So what category do you put Opeth in ?

IMHO the best tag is the one metal-archives uses, extreme progressive metal. I believe someone else posted it a bit back.

Btw, don't get the idea that i'm some genre nazi. I don't really care about labels unless its an extremely idiotic situation, like for example saying Miles Davis music is thrash.

 

[razoredge]

Miles Davis - The thrash of Jazz

I wouldnt be able to understand the term extreme being applied to Opeth. I would consider SX and DT to be the extremes of progressive musicianship, Opeth is no where near as extreme. I would however be able to understand the term death being applied to them for obvious reasons already stated, making them a progressive death metal band, which I believe is what they are classified as.

 

[Swabs]

When it comes to metal the term "extreme" is pretty much applicable to anything particularly heavy and abrasive, mainly Death Metal and Black Metal and their "Melodic", "Folk", "Symphonic", whatever counter-parts. When someone says "extreme progressive metal" they don't mean "extremely progressive metal", they mean "extreme metal, but progressive." And considering that Opeth have obvious Death Metal AND Black Metal influences, along with all their progressiveness and jazz influences, the term "extreme progressive metal" seems pretty much perfect to me.

 

[razoredge]

When it comes to metal the term "extreme" is pretty much applicable to anything particularly heavy and abrasive

but by this I find SX and DT particularly heavy and extremely abrasive due to time signatures and extended in depth musical tangents. By comparision I find Opeth to be pretty tame or laid back. What could be considered abrasive about Opeth is the death growl part of the vocals.... see theres that death word again.

Im really not trying to give you guys a hard time, as in anything to take personal, but I simply cant see where your coming from on this.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Im really not trying to give you guys a hard time, as in anything to take personal, but I simply cant see where your coming from on this.

That's the funny thing, 'cause I can't see where your coming from and i'm pretty sure Swabs can't either.

When one refers to a band as extreme metal, like already stated, one talks about the heaviness, abrassiveness and extremely fast tempo of the music (not to mention the vocals). Extreme has nothing to do with tempo changes, time signatures or how many influences you can put into a song. It doesn't make sense at all that you would label SyX or DT extreme progressive metal because, as most people already know, they are not extreme metal in the least.

Extreme Metal Genres:

Death Metal, Black Metal, Grindcore (though it originally comes from punk), Viking, (some) folk metal, Melodic death, etc.

Heavy Metal:

Thrash, Power, Speed Metal, Progressive, Neo-classical, etc.

I didn't mentioned Doom metal on either category 'cause that's a genre that could either fall under Heavy Metal or Extreme Metal genres.

When you have a band that obviously draws influences from extreme metal (mainly death and black metal) like Opeth, it makes perfect sense for you to label them as Extreme Progressive Metal.

 

[razoredge]

It all sounds fine and dandy until you listen to the music. Opeth: smooth, slow paced, gloomy... extreme? OK
Symphony X: as radical and aggressive as it gets and I mean in real terms, not the nonsence heard on XM's liquid metal which would be accute retardation at its best and still an insult to the mentally handicaped
extreme means extreme, Im fairly sure the defination has remained the same? nothing very extreme about Opeth
lets take extreme from an athletic point of view, an extreme athlete, the music of Symphony X or Opeth?
now how about that death element we keep side stepping?

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

It all sounds fine and dandy until you listen to the music. Opeth: smooth, slow paced, gloomy... extreme? OK
Symphony X: as radical and aggressive as it gets and I mean in real terms, not the nonsence heard on XM's liquid metal which would be accute retardation at its best and still an insult to the mentally handicaped
extreme means extreme, Im fairly sure the defination has remained the same? nothing very extreme about Opeth

I won't even bother with this, really it's not worth it. I mean, I haven't listened to Opeth's new stuff, but have you listened to MAYH? just listen to When and tell me that's not extreme metal.

now how about that death element we keep side stepping?

How exactly have we side stepped that point?

 

[razoredge]

Yes it really isnt worth it. I was unaware that "extreme metal" was a subgenre and that Death Metal, Black Metal, Grindcore, Viking, folk metal, Melodic death, etc. were sub genres of the "extreme metal" genre. Nor was I aware that someone was going to redefine the word "extreme" to a point where for example thrash and progressive metal would be denied access to the word extreme, very interesting indeed. As is progressive and thrash being simply heavy metal, cause I remember when there was heavy metal and then there was thrash, then there was this more extreme group of guys creating a more progressive metal. But its really not worth it because as I said, give it 20-30 years and none of this will be "extreme" anymore and all will be down graded to classic rock. Still at this time in focusing on the word extreme, I find it mind boggling that Opeth can be considered extreme metal, from which Death Metal, Black Metal, Grindcore, Viking, folk metal, Melodic death are part of but dare not put the word death metal on them, even if thats the topic on which they base their music and the mood which it evokes. Sorry but they seem to be far more about death than anything too extreme, then there is the progressive part of them which apparently isnt an extreme qualifier anyhow. Its just one big maddening circle, this extreme thing........

 

[Iced Dog]

Ya know who loves genres...Michael Romeo. Anyone remember that video interview of him where the interviewer tried to pin down Romeo on what kind of music SX is...MJR looked like he was gonna punch the guy in the face In fact, that might've been the one where the interviewer was like Quentin Tarantino hopped up on coke...I know, scary.

 

[Wander]

This genre discussion is only pissing me off. As someone on Opeth forum said, genres have only one purpose, to give people who haven't heard the band an idea what it's like. After that, it's totally pointless.

So, actually the real question is. What gives the most accurate picture of Opeth? Extreme progressive metal? Progressive death metal? Something else?

I think a big problem is that it's hard to give you a genre that would point out the obvious mellow breakdowns, acoustic passages and ballads etc. that are VERY important to Opeth sound.

Aaand... I think that in Watershed, the music is kind of consisting partly of progressive death/exteme/whatever metal and partly of simply progressive rock of sort.

So yeah.

 

[Slaydon]

I got this same thread started over at the Opeth forum. Boy did I regret it!

 

[Emanuele]

> Do you like Opeth?

I love Opeth. I saw them live last June in Milan.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Yes it really isnt worth it. I was unaware that "extreme metal" was a subgenre and that Death Metal, Black Metal, Grindcore, Viking, folk metal, Melodic death, etc. were sub genres of the "extreme metal" genre. Nor was I aware that someone was going to redefine the word "extreme" to a point where for example thrash and progressive metal would be denied access to the word extreme, very interesting indeed.

Been this way for years, wheter you know it or not doesn't make it any less true.

then there was this more extreme group of guys creating a more progressive metal.

Progressive Metal has never EVER been considered an extreme genre of music.

The rest of your points I won't bother to respond to because that's already been covered before. We'll just go around in circles and like I said earlier, I couldn't care less about this type of discussion.

[This genre discussion is only pissing me off. As someone on Opeth forum said, genres have only one purpose, to give people who haven't heard the band an idea what it's like. After that, it's totally pointless.

I think I said that a couple of pages back

 

[estYMaj]

Well Im Just going threw there collection now , ( I know what took me so long)
To make a long story short Im not a big growler fan so the first few times i heard them before i started going threw all there cd's I got turned off , but I since learned for my taste the songs with just a little growling I love and the ones with none and clean vocals Im loveing to but so far my opinion of them has been
they are great musicians !!! and ill just have to pick threw the collection
Who knows maybe they will change my opinion on the growling , But i doubt it.

 

[razoredge]

Been this way for years, wheter you know it or not doesn't make it any less true.

Sadly you missed the point

Progressive Metal has never EVER been considered an extreme genre of music.

Makes since to me, nothing extreme about progressive metal... :Smug:

The rest of your points I won't bother to respond to because that's already been covered before. We'll just go around in circles and like I said earlier, I couldn't care less about this type of discussion.

then why do you care that someone calls them progressive death metal? which they are

I think I said that a couple of pages back

Twernt me that got the are/are not _____ genre going, it was annoying to listen to so I jumped in. I enjoyed going through descriptions and word definations that did and did not fit them.

SRV - extreme blues ! but definantly not death blues

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Sadly you missed the point

I did get your point, but I won't even bother to dignify your sarcasm.

Makes since to me, nothing extreme about progressive metal...

Your point is?

then why do you care that someone calls them progressive death metal? which they are

You could call them flower metal for all I care, you seem to be the one trying to prove something they are not.

[Twernt me that got the are/are not _____ genre going, it was annoying to listen to so I jumped in. I enjoyed going through descriptions and word definations that did and did not fit them.

What do you mean with this anyway? back your shit up and don't go around making points that don't really have anything to do with the post that you just quoted.

I rest my case.

 

[razoredge]

weak! you started this shit way back on page two

Still you don't make sense, considering you called me a thrasher and Opeth have practically no death metal elements (side the vocals of course).
Riffing wise there is zero, overall atmosphere zero death metal as well. Where do you find the conection between the two?

contradict yourself right here, they have DM vocals, we know the subjects they write about and the doomy gloomy sound of the music, there is the atmosphere, its all around thier music.... death, you are the one who cant back anything up

Disclaimer: I have not heard anything after Blackwater Park, my comments are based on everything that encompasses all those albums. It should be said though that I seriously doubt their music has changed enough to be considered death metal in just a couple of albums.

Edit: For all those willing to take their chances in proving Opeth's death metal niche, i'd suggest you do your homework and check the following albums. Much easier and less annoying than getting myself into an idiotic argument about death metal in a progressive metal board no less, lol:

Death - Leprosy
Asphyx - The Rack
The Chasm - Deathcult For Eternity: The Triumph
Therion - Beyond Sanctorum
Dismember - Like An Everflowing Stream
Merciless - The Awakening
Infester - To The Depths... In Degradation

Here you have your little list of what death metal is supposed to sound like, but it doesnt matter, Opeth writes music about death, and sounds/feels like death, and they are primarilly a metal band = death metal. Then they have other influences, mix it up, take a song through many stages, in comes the progressive element = progressive death metal

For me they are, sorry if that's too offensive for you. I've seen countless arguments of this kind and they usually lead nowhere, and they are usually starte by people who don't have the first clue of what they are talking about.

Genres are tags used as a guideline for people to identify the bands they could like, not for mindless arguments that get you nowhere (hence my idiotic comment).

EXACTLY, why did you start the argument then ?

You know what? shut the fuck up. What the fuck do you know about death metal anyway? opeth? . I'm done dealing with idiots like you.

Abit touchy are we ? Remember you started the arguement, why ? something to do with what their riffs sound like ? Did they push some boundries you arent happy about ? Ya think that might be their progressive side ? It still doesnt change what their music is about, and deeply rooted in.... death

You might do this board a favor by slimply getting the fuck out. Btw, it doesn't take a hommie to realize that you're simple child that knows shit about the aforementioned subject. It only takes brains genius and Swabs was just refuting your completely baseless and ignorant statement. Go play with some play-doh or doggie shit for all I care.

glad you mentioned child here, because it was like watching children play

Death metal came to be when some bands wanted to create an even more extreme sound than the one the thrash bands of the 80's already had. As bands progressed other techniques were added to the mix

well at least here you admited that thrash was extreme, something you would later deny and noted that other techniques have been added, is this what Opeth has done ? other techniques used in their sound of ..... DEATH

No, Opeth's music is far too removed from death metal to be called death metal. Refer to the list I wrote earlier.

because your list explains this how, who the fuck was looking for homework? explain how they are removed, are they singing flower power songs now adays ? up lifting Van Halen type stuff? or is it just that progressive element again where they dont stick to some precast mold ?

Believe what you want anyway, I don't care about this type of discussion.

yes indeed, ^^ and all ^^^ of the above proves it
extremely fast tempo of the music so this would include thrash and "speed metal" then ? but what about Opeths pace, kind of slower isnt it ? wouldnt that disbar them from being "extreme" ?

Im thinking that the misuse of the word extreme best be dropped from genre specification because it fails miserably

When you have a band that obviously draws influences from extreme metal (mainly death and black metal) like Opeth, it makes perfect sense for you to label them as Extreme Progressive Metal.

again contradiction, you admit they draw influences of death metal but wont allow it, but rather grasp onto that word extreme which as I've shown, can be applied to many aspects of various music, yet "death" is pretty self explainatory and circumferences Opeths music and the term progressive exempts them from this set mold some insist on.

 

[Swabs]

razoredge I think you're taking the genre names a little too literally, singing about death does not instantly make something Death Metal, in fact, the lyrical content of Opeth's songs has been ridiculously generalized here. And "extreme" (I've already said this but it seems you failed to notice it the first time.) is simply another genre name, it's not used in the literal sense of the word like "extremely", it's just the name given to Death and Black Metal. Going by your logic Black Metal would have to sing about Black and be Black.