Evolution vs. Creation: The Cosmological Argument

[Satananda]

Aw, screw work! This is much more fun.

Very true, pyrus. As a matter of fact, when broaching that point in the many debates on this subject that I have participated in, the answer is, unfailingly, "God's will." I take it you've been on my end of these conversations before. Once, when living in a dormitory in college, I was the lone atheist arguing with against a roomful of Christians. But, I digress.

Let me ask you this. What was the response to the question that logically follows: "Why does God will it that way? How can suffering be part of a benvolent plan?"

And this is the point where I become very frustrated with religious folk, Christians specifically. They choose to simply accept God's will rather than exercise free will to question its veracity. An omniscient God would recognize this as a direct consequence of freedom of the will and not consign those who question or disbelieve based on the only evidence that God has made available, to a fiery eternity. I would (and do) REVILE a belief system that threatens my soul and spirit if I do not conform. This, to me, is anathema to the very idea of religion.

Please note that I am GENERALIZING here. I'm sure there are some of you who do, in fact, ask questions of your God. You are, unfortunately, the minority.

As Bertrand Russell so eloquently put it, "The problem with the world is that fanatics and zealots are so sure of themselves and wise men are so full of doubts."

 

[Satananda]

Please note that my use of the words "soul" and "spirit" above are purely metaphorical and not meant to imply anything about my views on souls and spirits.

 

[jaimek]

Funny you should mention Catch-22 - I brought that for reading material on the plane going to and from BWBK. The conversation wasn't with the nurse, but Scheisskopf's wife.

*googles the exact quote*

"And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways," Yossarian continued... "There's nothing so mysterious about it. He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else he's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about -- a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatalogical mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?"
"Pain?" Lieutenant Scheisskopf's wife pounced upon the word victoriously. "Pain is a useful symptom. Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers."
"And who created the dangers?" Yossarian demanded. He laughed caustically. "Oh, He was really being charitable to us when He gave us pain! Why couldn't He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of his celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person's forehead. Any jukebox manufacturer worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn't He?"
"People would certainly look silly walking around with red neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads."
"They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupified with morphine, don't they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He make of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It's obvious He never met a payroll. Why, no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him as even a shipping clerk!"
Lieutenant Scheisskopf's wife had turned ashen in disbelief and was ogling him with alarm. "You'd better not talk that way about Him, honey," she warned him reprovingly in a low and hostile voice. "He might punish you."
"Isn't He punishing me enough?" Yossarian snorted resentfully. "You know, we certainly mustn't let Him get away with it. Oh, no, we certainly mustn't let Him get away scot free for all the sorrow He's caused us. Someday I'm going to make him pay. I know when. On the Judgement Day. Yes, that's the day I'll be close enough to reach out and grab that little yokel by His neck and --"
"Stop it! Stop it!" Leiutenant Scheisskopf's wife screamed suddenly, and began beating him ineffectually about the head with both fists. "Stop it!"
Yossarian ducked behind his arm for protection while she slammed away at him in feminine fury for a few seconds, and then he caught her determinedly by the wrists and forced her gently back down on the bed. "What the hell are you getting so upset about?" He asked her bewilderedly in a tone of contrite amusement. "I thought you didn't believe in God."
"I don't," she sobbed, bursting violently into tears. "But the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be."
Yossarian laughed and turned her arms loose. "Let's have a little more religious freedom between us," he proposed obligingly. "You don't believe in the God you want to, and I won't believe in the God I want to. Is that a deal?" [Chapter 18]

Joseph Heller, incidentally, was a self-proclaimed agnostic.

Catch-22 is one of tne of the funniest books I've ever read. I appreciate it much more now than I did when I had to read it in high school!

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

fried eggs. with mayonaise.

 

[jaimek]

Please note that my use of the words "soul" and "spirit" above are purely metaphorical and not meant to imply anything about my views on souls and spirits.

Ahhh, I wouldn't worry too much about disclaimers. I've learned that as long as you're careful not to openly generalize, rational people (be they believer or nonbeliever) will understand that you're on about; the rest aren't worth arguing with.

 

[Satananda]

Thanks for refreshing my memory jaimek. I knew I had the details wrong. That scene (amongst innumerable others) just totally cracked me up when I first read it in junior high.

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

bacon. with mayonaise.

 

[Kon16ov]

Man, go out of town for a couple of days and everything goes *foop!*

That is practically forcing everyone to believe in him. Here is a scenario for you. There's a guy, he chooses to think for himself and not believe in god. This guy also cures cancer, aids, diabetes, asthma, the common cold, etc. He also stops world hunger and brings about world peace. And he also saves a bus full of children. Now, since this guy doesn't believe in god, then you think he should suffer for all of eternity? Because that is what the bible says, right?

Actually, this person is more likely to be revered and worshiped as a god or enshrined into instant sainthood withing the existing structures. That would be about like the Tuatha De Dannan...heroes that became gods...

Again, the Bible is hard to take at face value because of things like the NRV, KJV, Good News, Guttenberg, etc. Which version are you going to believe and put total credence in? Most of the translations are fairly close, but there are inconsistencies in the language and the meanings that arise because of the translation wierdness. I guess, if your Greek is good, you could start working on the source, but what's to say that Greek's the orginical translation and that anything of a translation is accurate...unless it's from the source...

 

[PlatypusJesus]

"Actually, this person is more likely to be revered and worshiped as a god or enshrined into instant sainthood withing the existing structures. That would be about like the Tuatha De Dannan...heroes that became gods..."

Yes, he would. I was just pointing out to Kiyardo how callous and inhuman it is to say that just because you don't believe in god, then you should suffer for all of eternity. He is saying that the guy in that scenario should be punished for saving mankind (although it is impossible to save mankind). I cannot understand how someone can say that that would be okay, with a clear conscious. How can it possibly be right? How? Is the brainwashing that deep? I mean, this really makes me see Christians in an even worse light then I already did. How can they truly believe this (I know it is not all of them)? Does a disincarnated god mean so much to them, that they suddenly are not able to differentiate between right and wrong, good and evil? It's funny how they try to make it look like their religion is meant to teach you moral lessons, and yet, they think that this would be just. Christianity has always caused more harm than good, just like every other religion and theory. Of course, humans cause more harm than good, so it is really expected that our religions and theories would do the same. I'm sure it was the intention of the creators. Just to quote part of my signature:
Beliefs of contradicting faith and tyrannical reign
Brainwashed fools bring forth ignorant pain

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

Toast with jam. And mayonaise.

 

[neal]

wolftrible likes mayonaise.
-neal

 

[PlatypusJesus]

I know how some are going to respond to what I just posted: "But he made the decision to not believe in god, so." First of all, so what. Second of all, in my scenario, the man came to the logical conclusion that god doesn't exist (and I must concur). He didn't say, "Well, god exists, but it's a fagot, so I won't believe in it." No, this man turned towards logic, and he thought long and hard about the question of god. After long consideration, he realized that the idea of god just didn't make sense to him, so of course he decided that god doesn't exist. Now, this doesn't sound "evil" to me, so it obviously doesn't justify a fiery eternity. And a huge problem is that the line between this life and the Christian's afterlife begins to blur in many Christians' minds. So they begin to call people evil for just not believing in their god, and sometimes go as far as war to silence those with different views. I mean, if you are going to hell (what a silly idea) then you are obviously evil. ARGH!!!!

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

Thrash metal. with mayonaise.

 

[Lies and Perfidy]

Anyone notice how much more insightful and intelligent this thread got once Fezzilla fucked off back to Delusional N00b Land?

 

[Lies and Perfidy]

I stand corrected, Wolftribe.

But thrash metal is better with mustard.

 

[Kon16ov]

I mean, if you are going to hell (what a silly idea) then you are obviously evil. ARGH!!!!

So, if you don't believe in "hell," then you're like the folks in Erik The Viking, "We're not sinking!! Tum tum TEE TUM*blblblblblb*"?

It kind of reminds me of a joke I was told a few months back. It goes something like this: "Tim receives an invitation from Satan for a guided tour of Hell. Thinking, no pun intended, 'what the hell?' he RSVPs for the following Thursday. So, Thursday arrives and Tim is hit by a bus, transporting him straight to Hell. He's greeted at a very ornate wooden door by a very well dressed man in his late 50s. 'Hello, Tim, and welcome to Hell. Allow me to take you on a tour." So, they're walking outside a luxurious mansion across rolling hills of luscious green grass with not a cloud in the sky. The temperature was in the mid-70s and the breeze was perfect. "So, when do we get to Hell," Tim inquired as they crossed a rippling stream, heading towards a large clubhouse with what smelled remarkably like suntan lotion. "We're in Hell." Before Tim could protest, to the west, they heard a blood-curdling scream and a thud. Before Tim could inquire, another shrieking person fell behind a wall with a sickening thud. "You're in Hell, Tim." "Well, if we're in Hell, this is all so perfect and so wonderful." Satan smiled, "This is true. I quite enjoy it, here." After a third person fell from the sky screaming, Tim finally looked Satan straight in the eyes and said, "OK, then what is THAT??" "Oh, those are the Christians. They expect it to be that way, so who am I to disappoint?"

I've always held the position that I'll see it when I believe it.

 

[Lies and Perfidy]

I've decided that the afterlife is what you make of it. If you expect to be raped by the lava-ejaculating member of Archdaemon Arkamazon the Thorn-Cocked, then get ready to bend over. If you expect harps and clouds, keep your picking fingers in good condition. And if you expect oblivion -

 

[Kon16ov]

Anyone notice how much more insightful and intelligent this thread got once Fezzilla fucked off back to Delusional N00b Land?

It's funny, though -- I've noticed that people just can't stand to have their views challenged. It's not that we were saying, "you're damned wrong, dumbass!" but rather "on what do you base this?" I think Fezz was expecting everyone to cotton to the idea that what we thought was out there, but, Gee, now that we know the truth, let's all agree with Fezz...how could we be so stupid?

Riiiiiiiight. It's one of the things that drove me from organized religion in general. When all the answers I got were "because that's how it is" or "because it's God's will," (we've seen this discussion earlier), or "because that is how it's always been taught," I chose to do my own research, my own searching and my own decision-making. When I was asked to leave the youth group for asking questions on the origins of religion (in general, and not just Christianity), the similarities in creations myths across roughly 20 different cultures/religions, and the notions of multiple aspects of gods being interpreted as distinct deities....well, I told them they didn't have to tell me twice.

I'm happy with the insightfullness...it's a refreshing change from the majority of the forums out there...ok, all of the other forums I've been on. Keep it up...I dig it.

 

[Lies and Perfidy]

The three things that make this forum awesome above all others:

A) The sheer randomness of it all.
B) Very insightful and intelligent posts.
C) Nothing gets deleted, ever.

 

[Kon16ov]

If you expect to be raped by the lava-ejaculating member of Archdaemon Arkamazon the Thorn-Cocked, then get ready to bend over.

There needs to be an emoticon for "completely incapacitated!!" I am, indeed, completely incapacitated! :hotjump: