Evolution vs. Creation: The Cosmological Argument
- Thread starter FEZZILLA
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PlatypusJesus
A Dead Sun Serenity
Reading all your so-called logics is like hearing beavis&Butthead commentary.
To me,its a debate.
To you,its a war...
A war for what?
I love talking about God to those willing to talk retionally.But you all are way to dull for conversation.....Boring..
I like a good debate not a beavis and butthead one.
Are you an atheist?
If you are [which i know your not,because there is no such thing] Then you probably know what, 80% of all knowledge? Howbout 60% of all the worlds knowledge. 35% maybe? O.K,how 'bout 5% of all the worlds knowledge. That more realistic. Out of that 5% knowledge as it ever occurred to you that maybe Jesus is somewhere in the 95% of the knowledge you don't know??
If your truely an atheist why then you must know it all! If you fail to answer one fact about anything,your not an atheist.
I dare you to read "Bones of Contention",by Marvin L.Lubenow. That book is written by a reliable author. this book proves the ape man theory wrong!!
Evolutions weakest points are the erosion problems.It seems that evolution theory didn't account for erosion
Fossilized evidence of dinosaur footprints walking next to man proves evolution wrong. And yes,axioms are given to prove they were done in the same period of time.
Id study deeper if i were any of you.Basic science is all anyone needs to prove evolution wrong.
To me,its a debate.
To you,its a war...
A war for what?
I love talking about God to those willing to talk retionally.But you all are way to dull for conversation.....Boring..
I like a good debate not a beavis and butthead one.
Are you an atheist?
If you are [which i know your not,because there is no such thing] Then you probably know what, 80% of all knowledge? Howbout 60% of all the worlds knowledge. 35% maybe? O.K,how 'bout 5% of all the worlds knowledge. That more realistic. Out of that 5% knowledge as it ever occurred to you that maybe Jesus is somewhere in the 95% of the knowledge you don't know??
If your truely an atheist why then you must know it all! If you fail to answer one fact about anything,your not an atheist.
I dare you to read "Bones of Contention",by Marvin L.Lubenow. That book is written by a reliable author. this book proves the ape man theory wrong!!
Evolutions weakest points are the erosion problems.It seems that evolution theory didn't account for erosion
Fossilized evidence of dinosaur footprints walking next to man proves evolution wrong. And yes,axioms are given to prove they were done in the same period of time.
Id study deeper if i were any of you.Basic science is all anyone needs to prove evolution wrong.
PlatypusJesus
A Dead Sun Serenity
Bones of Contention was utter bullshit. anyone who thinks Lubenow a reliable author obviously is either ignorant or has a serious unstable psyhcological condition.
Lies and Perfidy
Gentleman of the Road
Fezzilla, none of what you're saying makes sense. Shut the fuck up until you get your brain cells in working order.
Lord of Metal, I understand your frustration. And, i appreciate you discussing it with me. It's hard not to see it as punishment, but I think Iris said it best: "and yes, if that means i condemn myself, so what!!
I am responsible for my own choices and i'm comfortable with that."
I'll tell you why I accepted Christ and became a Christian, and maybe that will help you to understand a little better. The reason I chose Christ as opposed to any other 'religion' was because Christianity is not a 'religion'. It is a relationship based on Agape, which is an unconditional love, and not based on works or good deeds to please God. I'll explain. Basically all I had to do was to accpet Jesus as my personal saviour and admit that I'm not perfect. I had to believe that He died on the cross for all my sins, past, present, and future, and believe that He rose again from the dead. That's it. Simple, but not easy in practice day by day. I continue to mess up (sin), but that doesn't mean I'm out of favor with God, it means I stand for improvement. Any other religion is based on deeds and works to please their form of god. I really believe that if you ask God to reveal His self to you that he will. And, you will begin to understand a little better. Because, it's hard to in our own understanding. The Bible says that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to natural man. And, if you believe in God it makes it easier to understand the creation of energy.
On free will and the 'divine plan'. They both can coexist because God knows every decision that we make and will make, but I think provides opportunity for us all to choose Him while on this Earth. And it is His will that all men be saved, but with free will, He leaves that decision up to us, even as He knows how we will choose.
The analogy of the 'gift' I used earlier was to illustrate the relationsip with God. What Iris was mentioning was the gift of spirit and life that God gives to us all regardless of belief.
I hope I haven't been too preachy. Thanks for engaging in this conversation in a civil manner. YOu guys are bringing up some good points and it really helps me to think about where your coming from.
I am responsible for my own choices and i'm comfortable with that."
I'll tell you why I accepted Christ and became a Christian, and maybe that will help you to understand a little better. The reason I chose Christ as opposed to any other 'religion' was because Christianity is not a 'religion'. It is a relationship based on Agape, which is an unconditional love, and not based on works or good deeds to please God. I'll explain. Basically all I had to do was to accpet Jesus as my personal saviour and admit that I'm not perfect. I had to believe that He died on the cross for all my sins, past, present, and future, and believe that He rose again from the dead. That's it. Simple, but not easy in practice day by day. I continue to mess up (sin), but that doesn't mean I'm out of favor with God, it means I stand for improvement. Any other religion is based on deeds and works to please their form of god. I really believe that if you ask God to reveal His self to you that he will. And, you will begin to understand a little better. Because, it's hard to in our own understanding. The Bible says that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to natural man. And, if you believe in God it makes it easier to understand the creation of energy.
On free will and the 'divine plan'. They both can coexist because God knows every decision that we make and will make, but I think provides opportunity for us all to choose Him while on this Earth. And it is His will that all men be saved, but with free will, He leaves that decision up to us, even as He knows how we will choose.
The analogy of the 'gift' I used earlier was to illustrate the relationsip with God. What Iris was mentioning was the gift of spirit and life that God gives to us all regardless of belief.
I hope I haven't been too preachy. Thanks for engaging in this conversation in a civil manner. YOu guys are bringing up some good points and it really helps me to think about where your coming from.
you are the prime example of a brainwashed judeo-christian drone, and you sadly do not even realized how you are being manipulated, due to the age old saying, Ignorance is bliss. Christianity is most certainly a religon, denial of logic and reason, and acceptance of "the light of christ" simply shows even more proof of your ignorance. The flaws and holes in your argument are blatantly obvious to aynone with the IQ of a small rock. You have created no hard Evidence to support your case, only judeo- christian monotone hogwash (for a lack of better expletives). Please wake up before you infect anyone else.
-En VInd av Sorg-
-En VInd av Sorg-
WhiteBeastofWotan
Apostitutes!
Lies and Perfidy
Gentleman of the Road
WhiteBeastofWotan
Apostitutes!
Satananda
New Metal Member
"Basic science is all anyone needs to prove evolution wrong."
I think this is one of the most inane things I've ever had the misfortune to read. Fezzilla, all that you have done is read a couple of pro-creationist texts, and have simply attacked the agnostics and atheists using the so-called evidence that you have paraphrased (quite poorly, I might add). If I had the inclination to argue with one as lacking in basic verbal skills as yourself, I would point out other texts that directly refute your "evidence." You can even do it yourself, a google search will net you countless results.
You ask for a debate, yet you have posited no clearly articulated thesis upon which to stage an argument. You have simply attacked those with beliefs that differ from yours, and then said, ostensibly, "prove me wrong!"
It is for this reason that discussions like this are shied away from. Not because we don't like intellectual debate, but because of people like you with overly-aggressive and poorly-researched opinions. If you moderate your tone, argue rationally rather than emotionally, and read some things that offer differing viewpoints, I think you'll find some people here who are willing to discuss things of this nature.
Calmly awaiting a sensible post,
Rahul Ananda
I think this is one of the most inane things I've ever had the misfortune to read. Fezzilla, all that you have done is read a couple of pro-creationist texts, and have simply attacked the agnostics and atheists using the so-called evidence that you have paraphrased (quite poorly, I might add). If I had the inclination to argue with one as lacking in basic verbal skills as yourself, I would point out other texts that directly refute your "evidence." You can even do it yourself, a google search will net you countless results.
You ask for a debate, yet you have posited no clearly articulated thesis upon which to stage an argument. You have simply attacked those with beliefs that differ from yours, and then said, ostensibly, "prove me wrong!"
It is for this reason that discussions like this are shied away from. Not because we don't like intellectual debate, but because of people like you with overly-aggressive and poorly-researched opinions. If you moderate your tone, argue rationally rather than emotionally, and read some things that offer differing viewpoints, I think you'll find some people here who are willing to discuss things of this nature.
Calmly awaiting a sensible post,
Rahul Ananda
PlatypusJesus
A Dead Sun Serenity
"I'll tell you why I accepted Christ and became a Christian, and maybe that will help you to understand a little better. The reason I chose Christ as opposed to any other 'religion' was because Christianity is not a 'religion'. It is a relationship based on Agape, which is an unconditional love, and not based on works or good deeds to please God. I'll explain. Basically all I had to do was to accpet Jesus as my personal saviour and admit that I'm not perfect. I had to believe that He died on the cross for all my sins, past, present, and future, and believe that He rose again from the dead. That's it. Simple, but not easy in practice day by day. I continue to mess up (sin), but that doesn't mean I'm out of favor with God, it means I stand for improvement. Any other religion is based on deeds and works to please their form of god. I really believe that if you ask God to reveal His self to you that he will. And, you will begin to understand a little better. Because, it's hard to in our own understanding. The Bible says that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to natural man. And, if you believe in God it makes it easier to understand the creation of energy."
First of all, why should this god care if we believe in it? Why should we be punished for all of eternity just for not believing in it? There is no way to explain that. What, no matter how good you are, you must be punished just for not believing in it? That's absurd, and only points out that humans created the bible as a means of corrupting everyone to believe in this religion. I mean, what just god would just make a game out of our souls? You pick it, you win, you don't, you lose. Ridiculous. If, and this is a BIG if, if there is a thinking god that is just, then he would not punish us just for not believing in him (of course, there is not though). Also, I think another reason why so many people follow this religion is because they are lazy, as you pointed out. They don't want to have to prove themselves to be good people, because that just isn't possible for one thing (especially for a Catholic Priest), and it also is too hard. Laziness is the universal human trait, and this just goes further to prove that. Also, what you are saying is that the Christian *religion* does not ask you to be a good person, all you have to do is believe. Hmm....now let me think about this. Now this means that most likely, the majority of souls in *heaven (hahahaha heaven hahahahaha hmm...sorry)* are probably rapist, serial killers, child molesters (of course), etc., because everyone knows how they become born again christians right before dying. And you are saying that this is okay. I mean, by your belief, they are good people because they accept jesus christ (hahaha, hmm....sorry again) as their savior (savior hahahah, hmm....). This also means that Ghandi was evil, because he wasn't a Christian (blasphemy correct, I mean, Ghandi was just so evil ). Also, do you really want to go to heaven, where everything is perfect? Challenges are what make fun, aren't they? To me they are. If you truly want to manipulate yourself enough into believing that *god* has revealed itself to you, then you shall see it.
"On free will and the 'divine plan'. They both can coexist because God knows every decision that we make and will make, but I think provides opportunity for us all to choose Him while on this Earth. And it is His will that all men be saved, but with free will, He leaves that decision up to us, even as He knows how we will choose."
Don't you see? The divine plan and free will contradict each other. If our *destiny* is set, then there is no free will. *God* cannot predict what we are going to do if we have free will.
First of all, why should this god care if we believe in it? Why should we be punished for all of eternity just for not believing in it? There is no way to explain that. What, no matter how good you are, you must be punished just for not believing in it? That's absurd, and only points out that humans created the bible as a means of corrupting everyone to believe in this religion. I mean, what just god would just make a game out of our souls? You pick it, you win, you don't, you lose. Ridiculous. If, and this is a BIG if, if there is a thinking god that is just, then he would not punish us just for not believing in him (of course, there is not though). Also, I think another reason why so many people follow this religion is because they are lazy, as you pointed out. They don't want to have to prove themselves to be good people, because that just isn't possible for one thing (especially for a Catholic Priest), and it also is too hard. Laziness is the universal human trait, and this just goes further to prove that. Also, what you are saying is that the Christian *religion* does not ask you to be a good person, all you have to do is believe. Hmm....now let me think about this. Now this means that most likely, the majority of souls in *heaven (hahahaha heaven hahahahaha hmm...sorry)* are probably rapist, serial killers, child molesters (of course), etc., because everyone knows how they become born again christians right before dying. And you are saying that this is okay. I mean, by your belief, they are good people because they accept jesus christ (hahaha, hmm....sorry again) as their savior (savior hahahah, hmm....). This also means that Ghandi was evil, because he wasn't a Christian (blasphemy correct, I mean, Ghandi was just so evil
). Also, do you really want to go to heaven, where everything is perfect? Challenges are what make fun, aren't they? To me they are. If you truly want to manipulate yourself enough into believing that *god* has revealed itself to you, then you shall see it. "On free will and the 'divine plan'. They both can coexist because God knows every decision that we make and will make, but I think provides opportunity for us all to choose Him while on this Earth. And it is His will that all men be saved, but with free will, He leaves that decision up to us, even as He knows how we will choose."
Don't you see? The divine plan and free will contradict each other. If our *destiny* is set, then there is no free will. *God* cannot predict what we are going to do if we have free will.
Lies and Perfidy
Gentleman of the Road
Very well put, Satananda. I woulda said something like that, but A) it wouldn't have been half as eloquent or crippling B) it's so much more fun just to tell him to shut the fuck up.
I'm more interested in the idea of intelligent design. I mean, if you look at the human body, as complex as it is, it's not exactly *intelligently* designed. I mean, if testicles is the best idea God could come up with for male reproduction - hangling out there, prone to sterility and hernias with one good whack - I seriously question the "intelligent" part.
Uh.
*sees the predominantly male population*
*sidles away, grinning wickedly*
But you all go ahead and believe whatever makes you comfortable. I only give a shit when someone else feels their beliefs give them the right to inflict abuse on someone else for believing something different.
Uh.
*sees the predominantly male population*
*sidles away, grinning wickedly*
But you all go ahead and believe whatever makes you comfortable. I only give a shit when someone else feels their beliefs give them the right to inflict abuse on someone else for believing something different.
Satananda
New Metal Member
jaimek:
You bring up an interesting point about the body. I wish I could delve into it right now, but work intrudes, so let me just say this for now.
There is an argument in the book "Catch-22" by Joseph Heller between the protagonist, Yossarian, and one of the nurses about God. She sanctimoniously decries his atheism, much like our misguided friend Fezzilla, and Yossarian's response is not only hilarious, but quite thought-provoking. I don't have the book with me, so I am forced to summarize based on my imperfect memory. Please forgive any egregious inaccuracies.
He essentially contends that if there is a God, why did he make physical pain and agony a part of life? The nurse's response is the typical response of: how would we know that we are hurt, it prevents you from moving damaged parts of your body, etc. Yossarian then retorts saying, why couldn't he have just caused temporary paralysis, or embedded a flashing neon sign that says "I'm hurt" in our foreheads.
In the heat of the argument, Yossarian unwittingly touches on a key tenet of the atheist dialectic. Namely, the imperfection of man based on a supposedly perfect God. This argument has been alluded to earlier in this thread, but never really explored. I'll try to get more specific when I have time to gather my thoughts sufficiently this evening.
Not that any of you really care.
You bring up an interesting point about the body. I wish I could delve into it right now, but work intrudes, so let me just say this for now.
There is an argument in the book "Catch-22" by Joseph Heller between the protagonist, Yossarian, and one of the nurses about God. She sanctimoniously decries his atheism, much like our misguided friend Fezzilla, and Yossarian's response is not only hilarious, but quite thought-provoking. I don't have the book with me, so I am forced to summarize based on my imperfect memory. Please forgive any egregious inaccuracies.
He essentially contends that if there is a God, why did he make physical pain and agony a part of life? The nurse's response is the typical response of: how would we know that we are hurt, it prevents you from moving damaged parts of your body, etc. Yossarian then retorts saying, why couldn't he have just caused temporary paralysis, or embedded a flashing neon sign that says "I'm hurt" in our foreheads.
In the heat of the argument, Yossarian unwittingly touches on a key tenet of the atheist dialectic. Namely, the imperfection of man based on a supposedly perfect God. This argument has been alluded to earlier in this thread, but never really explored. I'll try to get more specific when I have time to gather my thoughts sufficiently this evening.
Not that any of you really care.
Lies and Perfidy
Gentleman of the Road
I remember that part...it's great how Joseph Heller slipped in all these little bits of intellectual brilliance as random scenes in the book.
But the problem with using that argument is that the religious response can be "Because He wanted it that way." On the God side of the debate table, a strong dose of "My will be done" trumps all.
But the problem with using that argument is that the religious response can be "Because He wanted it that way." On the God side of the debate table, a strong dose of "My will be done" trumps all.
neal
wizard in black
