faith & religion

[mousewings]

Religion threads bring forth a certain element of fear within me. (You have to be on the other board I visit in order to understand this)

Since this board is much better I'll contribute a bit of my own beliefs. I am not religious in any way, possibly as my parents are athiests, and I was raised as one.

I do believe in life after death and otherworldly beings. I consider myself a pagan. I am somewhat against religion as it causes people to fight and justify doing horrible deeds, and to a lesser degree of negativity, organized religion makes some people blindly follow and not be able to think for themselves. In spite of that, I still am quite fascinated by different religions (especially the ancient ones).

I also am okay with people worshipping what they want as long as they do not believe themself to be superior to others who believe differently and as long as they don't hurt other people or try to aggresively convert anyone.

I still get a bit afraid whenever mentions religion or when a thread starts talking about religion -- even threads created by cool people like rahvin (I have bad experiences with them regularly on another board), but this one is pretty trippy and wonderful so I thought I'd contribute my thoughts.

That's all this vampire bat has to say.

Edited for bad vampire bat language skills...

 

[Misanthrope]

Nonesense this forum is more mature, and is capable of a mature conversation about it that doesnt comes down to a 10 year old saying "no it isnt", "yes it IS", "no it ISNT" with 30 year old english teacher vocabulary. There is also no arrogant idiots who refuse to even think about the posibility they might be wrong, there is a much more confortable setting here. However is not my fault i didnt created the thread so i dont really give a fuck. More replies l8r

 

[mousewings]

The people here are much more mature and intelligent, so I doubt there will be any conflict.
I was just reflecting on my personal phobias and weird gut reactions (I have lots). Yeah, and my phobias are my own fault and no one should care.

 

[Thanatos]

Faith as a human need, religion as a human need...

What if I don't have those kinds of needs (I know there's more people like me)? Am I not human?


Why do you think people has to find a meaning for their life through faith or religion? there are other ways (I don't know them but there must be ) and, why should we bother to find a meaning? is there really a meaning? I don't think that faith or religion give satisfying answers to the questions most of us have.
A lot of people choose to embrace them because it's easier to have the purpose of your life set by them and therefore they don't have to use their brains and live a mediocre life...

just my opinion.

 

[Soulscar]

I don't think that you have no need for faith or religion at all. I think one might not have a need for religious beliefs, bbut I cannot imgaine anyone living absolutely at random, without any beliefs or values that guide him.

I think "faith"has to be "measured on a wider scale"
Anything you strongly believe in, the aims you set yourself, all that makes up your faith. Might be simple things as most ppls affinity to DT#s music in here, the simple fact that most of them are - at least I believe they are - part of a subculture. This resembles some kind of faith for me.

@ Thanatos: What takes your life beyond mediocrity if not YOUR own faith in something, in the way YOU live your life?

 

[rahvin]

time to take care of my thread.

i'm gonna split this reply to avoid it being overlong. in the first part (the one you're reading) i'll just state my opinion on the matter in general. afterwards, i'll post personal replies to all those who've been so kind and gentle as to express their sensible opinions. and yes, this goes for you too, misanthrope.

i'm an agnostic, as many apparently are on this board. i've been raised by an agnostic (my father) and an atheist (my mother), and so i have had no direct contact with 'church business', except via friends and other relatives. my parents have always been quite open-minded when it came to my (un)religious upbringing, and i can say nothing much has been shoved down my throat one way or the other, apart from an excessive dose of ethical relativism, but that's another kettle of fish entirely.

as any agnostic, i don't know whether any god(s) exists, and i don't claim trascendental or scientific knowledge over metaphisical affairs.
i take it that there are two ways to attain some kind of relationship with anything and anyone that might exist beyond mundanity: the first is through rational means, the other by a leap of faith. personally, i don't think anyone of us can prove or disprove god(s)'s existence via rational means: the issue is far too complex to be grasped all at once, and besides the very essence of god(s) tends to remain elusive enough in itself to avoid being enclosed in any definition. it might as well be that trying to define god(s) equals denying it.
so i think one has to rely on faith to make any statement. well, i don't have faith.

it's pretty clear that some forms of belief inhabit my mind. i believe i'm living on planet earth, i believe the sun will rise in the east tomorrow and so on. however, there are rules, albeit not water-proof rules, that support such beliefs.
when it comes to god's existence, i should accept that there is no guideline to rely upon except... what? faith. a feeling. an emotion. the feeling that such a supernatural entity does exist.
as much as i find acceptable and sometimes even likely that this might be true, i merely think that god might exist, but i do not actually believe in him/it/her being there.

that means i'm a non-believer, which is something quite different from an atheist, who's a strong believer in god's non-existence (for reasons of his own).
however, as i said previously, i often find a likely chance that there is some kind of metaphisical principle of everything that is. the reason why i find this a likely chance is at the same time very simple and very stupid: i think god(s) might exist because there's ppl believing in its existence.
i know this may sound weak: ppl used to believe in every crap they were told to swallow and no such thing did exist for real.
yet i feel that there are differences between the existence of, say, a six-headed dragon and god. the greatest of all seems to be that mankind abandoned very soon the idea that - human-shaped or not - god might be a physical entity limited in time and space. a dragon, on the other hand, would happily surely be like that.
but god happens to be more of an assumption, more of a principle that somehow speaks to the hearts and minds: it might as well be something mankind created, but it sure seems to be something that - on a psychological, mental-landscape level - sets us apart from most other animals that we know about.
so i think such a logical, non-material principle might exist, let's say, at 65%.

religion, now.
i reckon religion is all about society. it does have more to do with politics and behaviour's control than with taking good care of your soul.
as with many organisations in the world throughout history, the list of its crimes is long, and so is the list of its benefits. we might be driven to be judgemental towards a few popular religions (the roman church, on top of all of them), because their social role is at odds ends with their formal functions, and not in a positive way at all. but in the end they fill a need just like the milkman, and we'll never dream of blaming milk if the milkman doesn't pay his taxes.
i tend to stay far from religions for the same reason that i tend to stay far from tennis clubs: i'm no good at what they teach you there, they're expensive, i feel better just watching them doing their things on tv, and i don't trust ppl in white.

that's all for now. you've all said very interesting things and i thank you for your manners and intelligence: i'll reply to most of you in a while, but please do go on without me.

rahvin. (working man hero)

 

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Thanatos
Faith as a human need, religion as a human need...

What if I don't have those kinds of needs (I know there's more people like me)? Am I not human?


Why do you think people has to find a meaning for their life through faith or religion? there are other ways (I don't know them but there must be ) and, why should we bother to find a meaning? is there really a meaning? I don't think that faith or religion give satisfying answers to the questions most of us have.
A lot of people choose to embrace them because it's easier to have the purpose of your life set by them and therefore they don't have to use their brains and live a mediocre life...

just my opinion.

You are Super Human

Misanthrope ( who misquotes Nietzsche cause he doesnt knows german )

 

[Thanatos]

Originally posted by Soulscar
I don't think that you have no need for faith or religion at all. I think one might not have a need for religious beliefs, bbut I cannot imgaine anyone living absolutely at random, without any beliefs or values that guide him.

I think "faith"has to be "measured on a wider scale"
Anything you strongly believe in, the aims you set yourself, all that makes up your faith. Might be simple things as most ppls affinity to DT#s music in here, the simple fact that most of them are - at least I believe they are - part of a subculture. This resembles some kind of faith for me.

@ Thanatos: What takes your life beyond mediocrity if not YOUR own faith in something, in the way YOU live your life?

Just because you can't imagine something, it doesn't mean it's not possible, just like Misanthrope explained to you how it's possible that beings as complex as the one's populating the earth can be generated at random, there is an explanation for me not having any faith, or so I think.

What takes my life beyond mediocrity? The extensive use of humankind's most precious feature: rationality .

I think faith is a non rational thing and because of that, my rational mind does not find any satisfaction or soothing coming from it.

That doesn't mean I'm machine like, just that I am a very rational person (or at least I think so) but still human.

 

[unison]

hmmm, i am always struggling to pen down my ideas concerning religion and beliefs in a brief and clear way.

About religion, i do see the social value of an organized religion. I grew up in a small catholic community, and although i seriously question the sincerity of people's religious convictions, the church did have an important social function, which was not a bad thing per se. even though i myself was involved in this, i have always felt like a sort of bystander, an observer, and my involvement was more out of curiosity (and because the community 'forced' me to), rather than out of spiritual convictions.

So, question is: do i believe in the notion of GOD, as it has been taught to me by my peers? My answer has to be :NO. Not literaly at least. Does this mean i am not a spiritual person? Not in the least, and there is the whole duality of it all.
We are educated in science, which is based on what we regard as facts. We acknowledge that science is nowhere near complete, but since what we know does seem to support our sciences, we accept them as being true. Looking from a purely scientific angle, there is nothing( no 'facts') which support religious beliefs(that's why they are called beliefs in the first place), and therefore i regard them as non-existant. This does not mean i deny the existance of a 'god', based on 'facts' it is just highly unlikely to me. Does it keep me busy? of course, the idea of a giant benevolent force behind the universe intruiges me. So again, curiosity...
So , is there a purpose in life? maybe, maybe not. I believe this question in itself may be the purpose. Would our lives be worth living if we knew the answer? All we strive for, our explorations and discoveries in life are all based on this notion: what is life all about, the big 'why?' The answer would render our lifes empty, or destinies fulfilled, our quest at an end. a definite case of 'Ignorance is bliss?'

more to come later...please feel free to comment on my ideas, all feedback is welcome

 

[the face of smeg]

i personally find it easier to believe that there is no afterlife. it means that when we die, it's all over. how can you be afraid of nothingness.
it means there's no 'final judgement', what you do in your life really doesn't matter that much. if you fuck it up, when you die, it makes no difference. it lets you enjoy life without being afraid of it.

& i especially despise when people talk about the realationship betweem religion & morality. even if they don't mean to imply that the only reason people have morals is because they're scared of the consequences (as in hell etc.) if they're not, i can't help thinking that's what it says about them (ie; if they're only 'good' people because they're afraid of the consequences, as opposed to empathy or kindness or wotever).

 

[Soulscar]

Hmmm, but what about other "irrational" things: Love, likes and dislikes. EVen musical preferences are irrational to me. Of course my likes and dislikes follow their own principles, but they are basically irrational.

I think - although it might be a bit off-topic - that this is part of the problem of mankind and at the same time something that makes life worth living: Mankind is exposed to an inner conflict between rationaliy and the evolutionary rest of animal drives.

Perhaps religion is just the outcome of man's ability to foresee his own death?

OK, that's enough of a layman's naive approach to philosophical problems for today

 

[|ngenius]

*clangorous applause for Rahve*

Firstly of all, congratulate Rahvin to re-introduce some meaningful threads here. Not in vain Rahve is one of the italians I still respect.

I didn't read the whole thread yet, 'cos I'm just in the middle of my holidays in Madrid, and my time isn't as long as I wish to reply. However, I'll try to reply to the main questions that our clever pizza eater asked in his starting post.

I believe in something that I can assure you is NOT the catolic church. I consideer myself as an intelligent robot, and the clear dogmas and rules on the catolic church base his beliefs is obviously too much believe. My faith has many logical horizons.

But my romantic feelings believe in something I can't explain exactly. And my mind needs a rational explanation for living, the famous meaning of life. Therefore, in my dreams the hope is the best partner in life, and all surround us has a meaning inside.

Neither "standard" beliefs, nor particular ways to behave depending on the different available churchs. Just believing in me, just doing the best I can.


|ngenius ("The belief is worse than the idea, 'cos ideas can change")

 

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by the face of smeg
i personally find it easier to believe that there is no afterlife. it means that when we die, it's all over. how can you be afraid of nothingness.
it means there's no 'final judgement', what you do in your life really doesn't matter that much. if you fuck it up, when you die, it makes no difference. it lets you enjoy life without being afraid of it.

& i especially despise when people talk about the realationship betweem religion & morality. even if they don't mean to imply that the only reason people have morals is because they're scared of the consequences (as in hell etc.) if they're not, i can't help thinking that's what it says about them (ie; if they're only 'good' people because they're afraid of the consequences, as opposed to empathy or kindness or wotever).

They wont get it, nothingness is nothing to be affraid of, nothing matters, there is no value in life and everything we do is pointless effords to escape the nothingness that is death. I understand you completly and it leads me to think that most people is just too arrogant to realize some truths as simple ( and therefore as complicated) as this.

This is exactly why im on the "its only on your mind" side of the matter, i understand its a necesity and i think both science and spritualism are completly arrogant stupid and pointless.

 

[FatherVic]

well I'm really astonished on how this thread is going on....I expected people attacking christianity for the deeds of 1000 years ago. Yeah pagans can be quite aggressive

As for me, I'm a christian, and I'm also a "practicant" christian, so I go to church on sundays and stuff...I inherited, the just left it, and some years ago I retook it by myself...noone pushed me. I didn't see any light, but I felt I should. I won't get into any discussions, since I already had more than I could cope with, specially considering that in the metal scene the word Christ normally is surrounded by chopped, crushed, raped, destroyed, impaled, desacrated, dragged, and genital mutilated so as you understand I've been most of times looked as the whitest of the sheep
but from here, at least in this forum (and 'cause it's deserved here) I will ask to any question you have from one of the few metalers that believes in God

fathervic ()

 

[|ngenius]

I wanna know the reasons to choose a concrete God/church, reasons to believe in a superior entity (it could be chupier to believe in a field full of naked women than an irascible God surrounded by gay men with wings), the reason why a man should to have his beliefs and also make liturgical rites to maintain them. Just curiosity, I'm not against different behaviors.


|ngenius (curious)

 

[FatherVic]

ok, not talking from a personal experience...but here's a little theory....
even if the origin is somewhat obscure, the evolution of religions are brought up by men. Normally the ones with power, who knew by first hand how far could reach the vastly depraved hand of man! Thus, they started making their own restrictions in order to keep some human deeds controlled. And it was much more sensible than start adoring cabagges for the sake of nature!
Taking seriously the field of naked women you should consider which was women role on that time. Why should you adore women when you already hold power over her?
And obviously the thing of "naked women" imply more than one, and politheistic religions always have been a total mess....and wouldn't like to think what would happen if all those deities were women (which surely would be really irascible )
Now, I see you don't have much contact with christianity, or else you wouldn't said the thingy about and Irascible God. I've never seen my God get enraged nor come here shouting 'cause I had naughty deeds...and hey, I don't have any problem with gays!!!

fathervic (not irascible)

 

[|ngenius]

Two options availables: Melon is avoiding my questions or Melon didn't understand my questions. I didn't ask for the origins of religions themselves and their nature.

Nothing to say about the rest, it's obvious that my words were tergiversated in an ironic way to avoid the questions that I made.

Possible answers expected:

1) I chose the christian church 'cos my parents told me to do it.
2) I did it to seduce my actual wife.
3) I can't explain the amazing success of my life when I joined in this church.
4) Dunno but is quite chupi.

|ngenius (explaining himself)

 

[Melancholia]

a few points and thoughts,i'm so tired with all the religious debates....

hmmm one thing i could never understood is why an entity like God is necessarily MALE.... to me it makes more sense to consider it as something neutral....

Politheistic religions a mess? i've never studied much about religions,it is sth beyond my field of interests,but i don't think things who seem to be complicated are really a mess....possible they are even more sensible imho..... considering the fact that each deity has its specific functions

I don't know if god in itself is irascible...but all these things about "burning in hell" "don't lie,god will burn you" "god is watching you" "god will punish you" and such stuff are things i hear quite often... and get pissed off especiallly when people say such stuff to children scaring the hell out of them.....

and btw,i don't have a problem with people believing/going to church/doing what they want anyway...it's somehow a matter of personal decision...but i DO get annoyed by fanatics of all kind,people who perform brainwash,people who talk shit like "oh,you didn't fly a kite on great monday...but well what do you expect from satanists?" lol: as if it was somekind of christian custom) and people who think non religious people are some kind of lower beings....

 

[FatherVic]

@|ngenius: if you were asking why I (and just myself) was christian and not in general, then you didn't succeed in the post...no irony was held 'cept for the winged gay, since I took that as an irony as no sensible and intelligent being could say that seriously.
If you had read my first post here you would have realised option 1 is discarded. Option 3 is discarded automatically since it's nothing but an effect not a cuase. Option 2 is stupid (really low from yourself if you expected that from me) since a) hadn't wife by that time b) my previous wife wasn't religious c) my actual wife isn't religious. And finally option 4 is the more accurate, my heart feels it to be chupi...
If you wanted the REASON for me to be a christian, then I would reply it's something way too personal, and only will say I wasn't pushed into it, it was a personal choice, and I even attend mass at other church my dad does...

Originally posted by Melancholia

Politheistic religions a mess? i've never studied much about religions,it is sth beyond my field of interests,but i don't think things who seem to be complicated are really a mess....possible they are even more sensible imho..... considering the fact that each deity has its specific functions

I meant unsucsesfull. The biggest three religions are monotheistic ones, and even politheistic religions have one that's bigger than the rest. (at least the few I know)
It's easier to follow one God than keeping in mind many, you have to keep in mind less things, less concepts, less offerings.
(this is obviously talking in the "human" concept of religion)

Originally posted by Melancholia

I don't know if god in itself is irascible...but all these things about "burning in hell" "don't lie,god will burn you" "god is watching you" "god will punish you" and such stuff are things i hear quite often... and get pissed off especiallly when people say such stuff to children scaring the hell out of them.....

Well, read last sentence...."when people say such stuff to children scaring the hell out of them"
So it's like when you blackmail a child with Sandman since a child cannot understand it. I've been attending weekly church for 7 years now (some things are really outdated!!!) and never been told God would punish me....the total contrary! (and thus it sounds a bit naive and contradictory) but we are told we all will be forgiven...so no rage nor anger there!!!

but well I won't try to answer everything, I'm really getting sick of these religion debates, but I thought this forum deserved the views of a tr00 christian
take care
fathervic (posting randomly from now on)

 

[Villain]

To me it's very interesting to read FatherVic's comments - I know a bunch of religious people (some of my best friends, actually), but few of them ever try to find out or explain exactly why do they belong to the church - even to themselves. The seducing idea of forcing them to sit down and think the reasons behind their beliefs has popped up in my mind quite a many times, but due to sheer respect I have towards my friends, I have not done it. That's why it was interesting to hear Melon's thoughts.

One thing, though: How do you define the "succesfulness" of a religion? Pure mathematics like how many members the particular church has or how widely it's spread are not ways to measure something like religion, in my mind. I'd say something along the lines of "how many percent of people belonging to this church feel their lives are satisfying?" - and in that comparison, the three "biggest" religions would lose by light-years, IMHO.

Originally posted by Melancholia

hmmm one thing i could never understood is why an entity like God is necessarily MALE.... to me it makes more sense to consider it as something neutral....

Have you seen the movie "Dogma"? If not, you surely should!

-Villain ("believe me")