I wanna switch to Pro Tools

[James Murphy]

click here for a lengthy and informative vid about some of the new midi editing features in PT8... some of the things he mentions have been part of PT for a while now though.

for me, drum editors... all of them i've ever tried, including Cubase's... are dumbed down environments... it's quite simple to create and edit drum tracks the same way really, but with full access to your timeline, from withing the main midi (piano roll) editor. just turn on the grid to your desired resolution when you want it keep it more "drum editor" like. i didn't like Cubase's editor when i tried it, and never used DP's drum editor either.

also, i find PT's handling of laying in and editing tempo and meter changes to be super simple and very quick.

 

[kaomao]

god james that video is amazing, finally a great editor

 

[Ermz]

I still haven't been able to justify a complete move over onto PT. As much as I love the software, LE covers all my editing needs and Cubase at the same time deals with my mixing needs without being really picky about compatibility.

There are a few things PT needs to adopt before I can move completely over. Cubase tends to run much more stable on my system, supports VST, works with 3rd party interfaces & of course is much cheaper than HD. So for the moment it's 2 DAWs and things aren't too bad really. You sort of get the strengths of both and it's easy enough to consolidate back and forth, albeit a bit time consuming. For those of us without the funds for HD it's the way it's gotta go.

 

[::XeS::]

I love this thread!!

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I still haven't been able to justify a complete move over onto PT. As much as I love the software, LE covers all my editing needs and Cubase at the same time deals with my mixing needs without being really picky about compatibility.

There are a few things PT needs to adopt before I can move completely over. Cubase tends to run much more stable on my system, supports VST, works with 3rd party interfaces & of course is much cheaper than HD. So for the moment it's 2 DAWs and things aren't too bad really. You sort of get the strengths of both and it's easy enough to consolidate back and forth, albeit a bit time consuming. For those of us without the funds for HD it's the way it's gotta go.

I keep cubase around so I can afford the inputs.

This is kind of the big suck about pro tools (hardware limitations and cost of I/O).

 

[::XeS::]

Anyway, speaking about protools 8:

PTLE basic ---> 48 tracks
PTLE with Music Production toolkit OR DV toolkit ---> 64 tracks
PTLE with Complete Production toolkit (MPT and DVT) ---> 128 tracks

I don't know the price list for the new toolkits but Music production now costs 500$...so I think the Complete production toolkit will cost not less than 1000$

 

[James Murphy]

gentlemen... the "problem" you are all finding with PT's costs for their HD gear is the same "problem" you'll find with literally anything marketed toward a professional market, rather than the home consumer or pro-sumer markets... anything intended for a "pro" market is pricey.... this is true with camera equipment, video editing rigs and software packages, photoshop ... hell, even clothes and vehicles.

bitching about HD's cost will get you about as far as walking into a surgical supply store and bitching about the cost of scalpels... it's just the way it is.

when a company makes a high end product (and maintains a large support network for it) intended for professional end-users who will be charging premium fees and earning their livings using it, they charge accordingly.

digi markets their LE lines to provide a gateway for those that are headed towards the professional world, to acquaint themselves with the interface they'll be using, and to allow those who are not to be able to interface with that world, as they realize there is a substantial demographic of pro-sumer users how will occasionally, or even often, need to do so... and even the odd professional that uses another platform altogether... such as Logic Pro with banks of Apogee converters, etc.

they do not market LE in order to undermine their pro lines, and irritate their rather large professional user base... thus it is only offered it a few, relatively limited configurations. it's notable though that they consistently allow for further expansion of LE systems with each major software revision, to the point now that one can put together a quite nice project studio based on a fully tricked out LE rig.

pro kit of any sort is costly. it's life, get used to it.

 

[::XeS::]

Mine was not a polemic...only a list of price.
I don't know if a PTLE 8 with the complete production worth the price compared to a digi 96i/o and PTHD...I'm considering all the option to do my choice

 

[colonel kurtz]

james...i think the general bitching about the price of HD doesn't have so much to do with it being expensive, but the fact that it's so much more so than comparable products that are being offered by other manufacturer's.

example: i currently run a mackie onyx 1640 with cubase...total price for 16 ins and a stereo out@96k, including DAW, is about $2500

now if i was to get the same features out of an HD rig - 16 ins and a stereo out @96k, i'd be looking at a price tag of around $7000. of course it's nice that HD handles so much of the DSP on the core card...but fuck, for the other $4500, i could build a PC that would handle absolutely anything i throw at it, and probably still have enough cash left over to get a 5150 or some mics or something.

 

[Ermz]

Well consider that $4,500 the 'industry standard premium'.

People will pay it, so they charge it - it's really as simple as that. If the Cubase arrangement works, then more power to you. I've got a pretty cost effective system running myself and I'm glad to have finally got to this point where I can handle most situations that are thrown at me and not have had to spent so much on a HD rig.

For those at the top tier who can justify it, the HD rig is still a viable purchase, and usually quite a bit more convenient to boot than alternatives.

 

[James Murphy]

james...i think the general bitching about the price of HD doesn't have so much to do with it being expensive, but the fact that it's so much more so than comparable products that are being offered by other manufacturer's.

example: i currently run a mackie onyx 1640 with cubase...total price for 16 ins and a stereo out@96k, including DAW, is about $2500

now if i was to get the same features out of an HD rig - 16 ins and a stereo out @96k, i'd be looking at a price tag of around $7000. of course it's nice that HD handles so much of the DSP on the core card...but fuck, for the other $4500, i could build a PC that would handle absolutely anything i throw at it, and probably still have enough cash left over to get a 5150 or some mics or something.

no, you're missing my point.. i'm not stating an opinion... just the way the world of professional gear/software pricing works.... Digidesign markets HD to the professional industry while Mackie and the makers of cubase market to the consumer and pro-sumer markets.. it's as simple as that. it's just the way it is, and it's the way it is in every single industry on this planet, from shoes to cars, to electronics repair tools, to food service kitchen appliances.. literally anything. this is not an argument or statement of opinion. it is fact, pure and simple.

 

[::XeS::]

I think that an LE system, with digi003 rack+, 8pre module (16 in's ) and Complete music toolkit would cost 2500€/3000€......it's a choice...or a preference...

 

[colonel kurtz]

no, you're missing my point.. i'm not stating an opinion... just the way the world of professional gear/software pricing works.... Digidesign markets HD to the professional industry while Mackie and the makers of cubase market to the consumer and pro-sumer markets.. it's as simple as that. it's just the way it is, and it's the way it is in every single industry on this planet, from shoes to cars, to electronics repair tools, to food service kitchen appliances.. literally anything. this is not an argument or statement of opinion. it is fact, pure and simple.

i'm not saying that digidesign doesn't try to appeal to the industry professional...but what it comes down to is that their shit is still over-priced for what it is - and in many other businesses, people would tell them to fuck themselves and buy the other guy's shit, which is capable of doing the same thing for less than 1/2 the price.

let's say i'm a farmer...i go down to the john deere store for a new tractor, simply because john deere tractors are the "standard". then i go to another place that has a tractor that's the same size, same HP, same warranty, just as easy to service, etc. etc., but for 1/2 the price.

don't you think i'd be justified in bitching to john deere that their shit is overpriced?

 

[Metaltastic]

Yeah, but the difference is you don't need to interface your tractor with the tractorss of people across the world...

 

[James Murphy]

i'm not saying that digidesign doesn't try to appeal to the industry professional...but what it comes down to is that their shit is still over-priced for what it is - and in many other businesses, people would tell them to fuck themselves and buy the other guy's shit, which is capable of doing the same thing for less than 1/2 the price.

let's say i'm a farmer...i go down to the john deere store for a new tractor, simply because john deere tractors are the "standard". then i go to another place that has a tractor that's the same size, same HP, same warranty, just as easy to service, etc. etc., but for 1/2 the price.

don't you think i'd be justified in bitching to john deere that their shit is overpriced?

you are still utterly missing the point... and you somehow think i'm defending a company's prices, and i'm not (just as pointless as bitching about them). i will say it once more: Welcome to the world of professional pricing. this is the way it is. In fact, many times corporations pay much higher for THE EXACT SAME PRODUCT.. simply because they are a corporation.. it's just usually cosmetically different and will have one or two additional features... e.g. copying machines, Video surveillance systems.. etc. i think you are really just not aware of this aspect of business. i don't care to discuss it any more because nothing we say will change it, it's the way it is. Digi does not market HD to consumer, home users... sure, some buy it... but that's not who they market it to. PT HD is a "pro" product and thus it's pricier.... and there's a lot behind that... but it's BEYOND useless to sit and bitch about it. don't buy it, right? it's not meant for you anyway. you're right... you can get awfully close to the overall functionality and power for much less money by hodgepodging a system together.. and there's nothing wrong with that. that makes you a savvy consumer or "pro-sumer".. there are plenty of products marketed to that demographic. PTHD is not one of them, it's marketed to pro users and thus a premuium is charged for it... this is not a digidesign "scam".. it's a very well known concept that envelops ALL industries and professions, of every type, and that's the point i've been trying to make. start an industrial janitorial service and go to a pro janitorial services vendor and your mops will cost more then the ones in SafeWay... just the way it is, even though you may well find a good mop that comes incredibly close to the industrial brands for a lot less money. doesn't matter, that's just the way it works.

 

[colonel kurtz]

don't buy it, right?

k

 

[James Murphy]

there ya go.

 

[::XeS::]

Which could be the better solution from these?

1- Protools M-Powered - M-Audio profire 2626 + presonus digimax lt + music production toolkit 2

2- Protools LE - Digi 002 or 003 + presonux digimax lt + mpt2

With the first I can expand the input number much more (with 16 adat channels) and with PT8 and MPT2 I could have the same tracks number of the PTLE with MPT2
With the second one probably I have shittier default preamps and less adat channels but I'll expand the tracks number with the complete toolkit (128 tracks)

What do you think?

 

[MetalJonesy]

i generally prefer LE over the M audio package. but like you said you are limited on expandability.

 

[::XeS::]

You're limited on expandibility...true...anyway you have to spend 1500€ to expand PTLE to the complete music production. It's not and easy update.
Leaving out this thing, I think protools LE and protools M-powered are the same thing up to the music production toolkit.