If Mort Divine ruled the world

[rms]

I would argue that someone is wealthy if one parent has the option of not working

 

[Dak]

I would argue that someone is wealthy if one parent has the option of not working

Not really. It has as much to do with expenses as it does income. Plus, there's enough welfare out there in this country that the extra assistance is there.

I would argue past a point, homeschooling is more difficult for the wealthy than anyone but the most destitute. Have to send kids to the right schools for the right connections and status/CV entries.

 

[CiG]

What? There are millions of one income families all over the west, what's your definition of wealthy though because these definitions have changed so much, it's why statistics citing poverty are often misleading.

Didn't know about the Hillary rally but I thought it was hilarious when they disrupted a Bernie Sanders speech seeing as Sanders was arrested back in the 60's fighting for black civil rights.

That was actually the moment I decided I didn't like the man, was on the fence before but that sealed it pretty much.
He's a pussy, a white guilt ridden pussy and I just somehow can't imagine a guy that is such a pussy being elected by Americans for the position of commander-in-chief.

 

[no country for old wainds]

even if you consider it a pussy cause, surely getting arrested fighting for said cause makes him much less of a pussy than all the armchair liberals you encounter these days

 

[CiG]

Sure, but getting arrested for that cause is probably at the root of him being so susceptible to being shoved around by blacks like he was.

 

[Matt]

What the fuck are you talking about? How exactly is he a pussy?

 

[CiG]

Have you not seen him getting shut down by BLM?

 

[rms]

What? There are millions of one income families all over the west, what's your definition of wealthy though because these definitions have changed so much, it's why statistics citing poverty are often misleading.

I basically just defined it for you. If the family can live so comfortably that the other parent does not have to work, then I consider that wealthy. This scenario also depends on the other parent being educated enough to even entertain the idea of home schooling, which in turn talks of their socio-economic status.

Have you not seen him getting shut down by BLM?

What was his alternative? I don't get it. He's the candidate of the people, but he was going to lose that podium no matter what. Unless he forcibly had their 'protest' removed

 

[Dak]

I basically just defined it for you. If the family can live so comfortably that the other parent does not have to work, then I consider that wealthy. This scenario also depends on the other parent being educated enough to even entertain the idea of home schooling, which in turn talks of their socio-economic status.

Why shouldn't a high school educated person be able to homeschool someone at least up to high school, if not through it? Especially with stuff like Khan Academy available?

I don't know what you mean by "so comfortably". The profit from a second income, especially with younger children, is often significantly sunk into the cost of working (2nd vehicle, childcare - after school or otherwise, meals away from home, etc). An single earner household of 4 making ~30k and not living in Cali or the Northeast shouldn't have any problem making it go on one income - unless they have spending problems. 30k is not very far above poverty level.

 

[Nephilim96]

gracias rms and cassette.

 

[rms]

You think the average high school graduate could effectively teach their children? I don't think so. Nor do I think they have the interest, patience or ability.

How is the Khan academy different than traditional schooling? I don't know about it in detail, but it seems like public education in the home rather than at a state funded institution.

The average person does have spending problems. The American system entices families to spend, spend, spend. Build credit etc. Can't just ignore that factor. I imagine working outweighs any kind of cost associated with sending the kid away for the day. 30k would give the family plenty of options for social assistance, including after school program subsidies and lunches, something I was a part of growing up.

I feel like you are putting too much family planning into this argument. I do not think the average, let alone near poverty level families, put that much thought into that.

 

[Dak]

You think the average high school graduate could effectively teach their children? I don't think so. Nor do I think they have the interest, patience or ability. I do not think the average, let alone near poverty level families, put that much thought into that.

Could they do it? Sure. Do they want to? Totally different question, and people get out what they put into something. Don't complain if your life plan of work, fuck, and watch TV leaves you with constant problems. If your average adult with a high school education is incapable - lacks the ability - to train a child up through the age of 12, then mandatory schooling is a complete waste of time and money.

How is the Khan academy different than traditional schooling? I don't know about it in detail, but it seems like public education in the home rather than at a state funded institution.

Even if it was identical, and even if the adult was slightly less adept at pedagogical skills than a "professional" K-12 teacher, the insanely smaller "classroom size" gives homeschooling a serious advantage. My point with the Khan Academy is that parents do not need to spend enormous sums on textbooks and materials, and if they are not very familiar with a particular subject or portion of a subject, the instruction is there as well.

Edit: I'll tie this into all this privilege bs: Maybe if Michael Brown's parents "put some thought" into his upbringing, he wouldn't have been gunned down in the middle of the road fresh off a violent robbery. Obviously the most perfect parenting doesn't guarantee perfect results, but the dismissal of the idea that the "underclass" should/would have any interest in the raising of their kids or in the general planning and operation of their household towards positive outcomes speaks volumes to the problem, and it isn't the skin color of other persons.

 

[rms]

The classroom size argument depends on the teacher being able and skilled enough to translate the topics on a face to face basis. I don't think a parent is more qualified than a teacher in that way nor do I think the education system in the 60s and 70s, our parents, was intended for reciprocation to younger adults.

Look at how badly parents are struggling with common core mathematics now. I really don't see the argument for home schooling outside of an ethnic education or religious

 

[Dak]

The classroom size argument depends on the teacher being able and skilled enough to translate the topics on a face to face basis. I don't think a parent is more qualified than a teacher in that way nor do I think the education system in the 60s and 70s, our parents, was intended for reciprocation to younger adults.

Look at how badly parents are struggling with common core mathematics now. I really don't see the argument for home schooling outside of an ethnic education or religious

That's why homeschooled children consistently outperform the average even after accounting for socioeconomic and parental education factors? I've posted the stats in this forum before. Now, it has been asserted (although I haven't found the studies to back it up) that children in public schools that have involved parents do just as well as homeschooled children - and somehow this is supposed to be a defense of public schooling. What that tells me is that public schooling is of no value. Furthermore, this just circles back up to the previous point: That it is primarily the parents of those kids in failing schools that are the problem.

 

[rms]

The stats for homeschooled success is heavily biased in not accounting for the worst in society, the poor and inner city. It cannot be a trusted statistic, unless this is somehow accounted for. What are the demographics for those that are homeschooled?

Aren't the rise of charter schools showing great success? Isn't there a problem inherent with the teacher union and the monopoly of control the state has on education?

Didn't you cite an article a few months ago that discredited the social education public schooling has?

 

[Dak]

The stats for homeschooled success is heavily biased in not accounting for the worst in society, the poor and inner city. It cannot be a trusted statistic, unless this is somehow accounted for. What are the demographics for those that are homeschooled?

That doesn't matter when we compare test scores for the US to other countries that don't bother to educate their poor, why does it matter here? It's not like homeschooled children are educated on magic dirt. I grew up in/on the edge of a bad neighborhood, in the middle of town, that was a half mile from one of the blackest, poorest counties in NC, and we weren't living there as a mission.

So what is it? Minorities can't homeschool? I just gave a link to the contrary (although one admittedly lacking in citations). Poor people can't homeschool? Here's a more graphical representation of HSLDA's research, can't easily find the original study I had linked before. Yeah, the source is biased:

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009_ray_studyfinal.pdf

Page 3 starts addressing your concerns about teacher certification, 4 talks about parental income and schooling costs.

Non-homeschooling source:
http://widenerlawreview.org/files/2011/02/02-GATES_final.pdf

“Homeschooled children achieve levels of academic achievement similar to or higher than their publicly schooled peers. These results cut across racial and socio-economic lines.

Numerous studies demonstrate that homeschooled students obtain exceptionally high scores on standardized academic achievement tests. For instance, one nationwide study analyzed data from 1,952 homeschooled students across the country and found that the students, on average, scored at the eightieth percentile or higher in every test category (i.e.,reading, listening, language, math, science, social studies, study skills, etc.). The national mean for these standardized tests, by contrast, was the fiftieth percentile.”

Aren't the rise of charter schools showing great success? Isn't there a problem inherent with the teacher union and the monopoly of control the state has on education?

Didn't you cite an article a few months ago that discredited the social education public schooling has?

You'll have to remind me of what I linked, I link so many things lol. Eh, depends on what you read about charter schools. Seems like a mixed bag.

 

[rms]

Not talking about minorities, it's undeniable that the poor of the inner cities face more social challenges than those of wealthier backgrounds. I'm not sure what your point is about the country comparison. I can't imagine a scenario where the poor are financially able to only have 1 parent working unless there's some sort of state subsidization for homeschooling. Especially since unemployment is also higher in those demograhpics, I believe.

The 2nd PDF is too long for me to comment, but the first has some things I would challenge.

The article cites that non-licensed parents do better at educating than licensed educator parents. This seems to be challenging the entire notion of higher education.

The article acknowledges that there is not consistent method to home schooling. Every parent can and probably does structure their own teaching environment very differently. How can a data set be accurately depicted without consistent factors? By stating this, the study cannot accurately suggest what the public schooling system is doing wrong and what the home schooling system is doing right.

"Time per day in learning activities" & "Full-service curriculum that services a year's worth of textbooks" -- Not even sure how the second point differs from public schooling. Counseling? How often should a teacher do this to correlate with success? Unknown.

Students whose parents both
had a college degree performed
better than those who had no parent with a college
degree.

I guess this helps out my perspective. The education level figure (4) also is interesting for homeschooling. What are the comparables for the average student in public schooling? Unaddressed.

The higher a
family’s income, the higher
the children score on
standardized tests.

Figure 6 doesnt' seem to accurately account for the "wage" that a parent would earn if they were a teacher, so the 600$ thing I imagine is for textbooks only? Why 600$ anyways?

Homeschoolers’ median family
income ($75,000–79,999)

edit;

I don't remember it exactly, but i'm pretty sure you referenced an article that discredited the "social" education public schooling offers, since I believe that is a common counter-argument to home schooling. I forget the details so I guess that's all I got


All in all, I do not know what the standard length of a learning day/week is for home schooling nor do they teach to a standardized test upon "graduating" or what. I believe all home schooled students have to take a "HS graduation" test to ensure they are ready for university, right? That's all I can think of that is standardized on that level.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

It depends on the state. I didn't have to take any standardized exam to properly graduate, but chose to because a certain score was required to receive a grant at the local university. Other states require annual testing.

I tend to agree that homeschooling probably won't fix things; it's a problem of broken families and worthless parents. Trying to get the bottom quintile of the population to teach their children effectively is not going to happen; many are not even capable of teaching their children good behavior.

 

[CiG]

What was his alternative? I don't get it. He's the candidate of the people, but he was going to lose that podium no matter what. Unless he forcibly had their 'protest' removed

Tell them to fuck off? Get better security?

Though you make a good point in that he couldn't have done much and Hillary didn't do much either, it was her fanbase that did something.

Which brings up another point, Sanders' fanbase is mostly spineless and weak too.
So of course they didn't do shit either even though they outnumbered BLM by God knows what amount, a lot.

 

[rms]

Dak had a solid image of "90% of privileged white kids support Bernie"--and that's true. White guilt(loathing) abound.