If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Einherjar86]

No because all of that comes to your mind when you hear cultures and countries called "shitholes" because that's exactly what they are and race isn't mentioned anywhere.

Have you ever read Hemingway's story "Hills Like White Elephants"?

Gravitational singularity! That's all he needed to say!

 

[CiG]

Have you ever read Hemingway's story "Hills Like White Elephants"?

No I'm honestly not very well read.

Relevant to your ability to dissect the true meaning of our world from science fiction:

Bunch of white noise.

 

[Einherjar86]

No I'm honestly not very well read.

It's a story about a man and a woman discussing an abortion, but the word "abortion" doesn't appear anywhere in the story.

The point is that meaning doesn't reduce to the application of specific words. It's an emergent phenomenon, it rises out of context and circumstance.

Ultimately, I'm not all that miffed about Trump's comment. It's expected, and adds nothing new to what I already supposed about our current asshole of a president. He has no tact and no grace when it comes to sensitive matters in which race absolutely plays a part, so I don't expect him to have any now. He also has minimal intelligence when it comes to the subjects about which a president needs to know, so it's a good thing he has semi-capable people around him (either that or he's feigning ignorance, which is even more disturbing because it means he wants people to underestimate him for reasons we can only speculate). I doubt he thinks of "shithole countries" as a racist comment, but the fact remains that it is. That's not a hallucinatory interpretation; it's a result of the context in which he said it, the pattern of comments he's made in the past, and the vitriol with which it was used.

And for the record, calling African countries "shitholes" is so much different than calling a local traffic ticketing controversy a "black hole." That's some overblown shit.

EDIT: and for the record...

What Trump is proposing, as sketched in his own tweets, is not a merit-based system. A merit-based system would accept or reject applicants based their own merits. Trump is saying that applicants should be accepted or rejected based on country of origin. He’s saying that the individual should be judged by the group. If you’re Haitian, you’re out.

That’s bigotry. It’s not some left-wing activist’s definition of bigotry. It’s the textbook definition.

http://amp.slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/no-not-everything-is-racist-but-donald-trump-is.html

 

[rms]

Jesus Christ, now I'm just thinking it's you who is the racist here.

Ein, if you re-read the original historical linguistic breakdown you made there and don't think that sounds almost as bad as Alex Jones on InfoWars i'm not sure what is going on here.

I honestly don't get the effort or end goal in proving Trump is racist. If he is, OK. Now what?

I had this conversation earlier on immigration with I think HB or CF about "cheap" and "expensive" immigrants and I imagine it's still true that immigrants from under developed-non english speaking countries are more economically and socially expensive to integrate than an immigrant from a 'developed' english speaking country.

But this whole thing becomes weird, again, when we see the underlying logic of western powers made these countries shit holes so they must save their people and country in order to right their historical wrongs WHILE also saying america needs to stop globally intervening because they make shit hole countries.

Leftist stance on immigration is so goofy and inconsistent I honestly don't get it. We just saw last week that Baltimore city schools are not properly tended to financially, we see California is rife with prison labor and likely a problem nationally. The informed public mostly agrees we have a systemic issue with policing and part of that is due to economic reasons.

Yet, the left will ignore these issues as soon as some brown people from another country want to come here.

 

[CiG]

I doubt he thinks of "shithole countries" as a racist comment, but the fact remains that it is. That's not a hallucinatory interpretation; it's a result of the context in which he said it, the pattern of comments he's made in the past, and the vitriol with which it was used.

I don't agree that it is a fact that it was a racist statement, though it was clearly discriminatory. I just think it was culturally so rather than racially so. Also I didn't mean to imply you were hallucinating though I can see how my "in your head" comment seems that way now, what I meant was I think you're conflating interpretation with fact and while I appreciate the 'Hills Like White Elephants' example I don't think it quite applies, considering we both have different interpretations of the context of "shithole" here, whereas I assume it was clearly about abortion without much of an alternate interpretation?

Anyways, I agree that Donald Trump is:

He also has minimal intelligence when it comes to the subjects about which a president needs to know, so it's a good thing he has semi-capable people around him (either that or he's feigning ignorance, which is even more disturbing because it means he wants people to underestimate him for reasons we can only speculate).

But I actually lean towards thinking Donald Trump is more post-racial than any other American politician right now.

 

[Einherjar86]

But this whole thing becomes weird, again, when we see the underlying logic of western powers made these countries shit holes so they must save their people and country in order to right their historical wrongs WHILE also saying america needs to stop globally intervening because they make shit hole countries.

For what it's worth, my stance isn't "the left's" stance; and I agree that the issue, as you frame it here, is contradictory.

As far as proving Trump racist, I don't think it needs to be proven; I just think it's obvious. This just means that there's still work to be done in communicating this to certain groups of people, many of whom don't want to hear it. And undoubtedly past communicative efforts have been, to put it mildly, ineffective.

I don't agree that it is a fact that it was a racist statement, though it was clearly discriminatory. I just think it was culturally so rather than racially so. Also I didn't mean to imply you were hallucinating though I can see how my "in your head" comment seems that way now, what I meant was I think you're conflating interpretation with fact and while I appreciate the 'Hills Like White Elephants' example I don't think it quite applies, considering we both have different interpretations of the context of "shithole" here, whereas I assume it was clearly about abortion without much of an alternate interpretation?

Re. interpretation vs. fact, good point. I actually try to resist using the word "fact," but it slipped out above because of the colloquialism, i.e. "the fact remains." I don't think there's any way around the racial inflection of his comments and behaviors, but I'll stop short of calling it a fact.

Re. fiction vs. politi-speak, I think there's overlap even if the context differs. There's far less political gasoline surrounding Hemingway's story than there is surrounding Trump's comments, that's true; but that doesn't means political language can't be interpreted in that respect. In fact, if Orwell is to be believed (a la "Politics and the English Language"), then most politi-speak needs to be interpreted and unpacked since it's mired in ideological baggage.

I feel like you want to suggest that Trump, by using the word "shithole," is actually circumventing ideology by simply stating the obvious and not tiptoeing around the issue. I'd agree that he's stating something obvious (i.e. the poor political and economic state of certain regions), but that he's appealing to ideological fervor by stoking the embers of an American exceptionalism that has never burned out.

But I actually lean towards thinking Donald Trump is more post-racial than any other American politician right now.

I disagree completely, but that's a big claim to counter.

 

[EternalMetal]

"Shit" and "blackness" have a socially interrelated history; but of course, someone like Trump probably doesn't know this. Walter Mosley hints as much at the end of his story "Dr. Kismet" when his protagonist says that black signifies the absence of knowledge, black holes, what white people can't see. It's the color of shit.

And for the record, calling African countries "shitholes" is so much different than calling a local traffic ticketing controversy a "black hole." That's some overblown shit.

This whole thing just reminds me of that bullshit troll about milk being racist that so many people bought into. Conflating a term like shithole to being racist because of the black/brown reference is just some imagined PC bullshit.

I dont exactly agree with Trump's desire to deny immigrants from shithole countries (people immigrate to other countries for a better life), but I dont think he is being 'racist' about it. The type of immigrant Trump wants is somebody who is already skilled and competent with abilities that will better our country. Whether they are white, black, yellow, etc, I dont think he cares.

 

[CiG]

@Einherjar86 Will respond (and try to elaborate on why I think Trump is more post-racial than anybody else right now) after much needed cryosleep.

Just quickly: I don't think I said or implied that Trump is trying to circumvent ideology, I specifically said I think his bias is nationality not race and that's why I don't think he'd ever slander [insert non-white ethnicity]-Americans but I bet in a heartbeat he'd call another white majority country a "shithole" because for him it seems to be all about American exceptionalism, which would also explain why he's prioritizing Norwegians over Haitians, the former in his mind enriches America whereas the latter enriches the immigrant at America's expense, again in his mind.

So yes, I've always thought it was exceptionalism with him and not racism. Cultural chauvinism.

Anyway just a thought.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Is there a precise quote or transcript available yet? afaik it's not yet established that he singled out African nations, or that he is against a merit-based system. For all we know (afaik again) Dick Durbin said "Haiti is having a lot of troubles, we should take in extra people from Haiti" to which Trump replied "Why focus on these shitholes?"

 

[Einherjar86]

This whole thing just reminds me of that bullshit troll about milk being racist that so many people bought into. Conflating a term like shithole to being racist because of the black/brown reference is just some imagined PC bullshit.

I dont exactly agree with Trump's desire to deny immigrants from shithole countries (people immigrate to other countries for a better life), but I dont think he is being 'racist' about it. The type of immigrant Trump wants is somebody who is already skilled and competent with abilities that will better our country. Whether they are white, black, yellow, etc, I dont think he cares.

But he does, which is why he's willing to refuse or allow entry to people based on nationality. He's not even willing to give Haitian or African immigrants the chance to prove themselves individually. He's simply making broad assessments based on general national stats; and when you take a country like Norway versus an African country, this also correlates to racial identity.

For the record, I don't have my copy of "Dr. Kismet" with me; I'm paraphrasing. I don't think Mosley was implying that "black hole" is a racially motivated term, but that blackness is commonly associated with a particular set of concepts, and that in certain cases these can be seen to intersect with attitudes toward people of color. I'm being more reductive in my comments here than I should be, but it's tough to respond to everyone without spending an hour on a post.

Is there a precise quote or transcript available yet? afaik it's not yet established that he singled out African nations, or that he is against a merit-based system. For all we know (afaik again) Dick Durbin said "Haiti is having a lot of troubles, we should take in extra people from Haiti" to which Trump replied "Why focus on these shitholes?"

I don't know of any transcript, but based on reports it seems pretty straightforward. I mean, we can argue over whether he specifically meant Africa and Haiti, but that seems like a waste of time.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Knowing the extent to which he supports or disfavors a merit-based system is pretty fundamental to it, beyond general outrage over Trump being offensive (which is obviously nothing new). The immigration process is very slow for people that aren't either extremely wealthy/successful, or aren't illegal. An average Norwegian is probably much more skilled and educated than a 90th percentile Haitian, but the former will have a much harder time getting here. From what Wikipedia tells me, Haitians immigrate here at a rate at least 10x higher than Norwegians, having sent 1% of their entire population here during the last decade.

 

[Einherjar86]

Is that because it's harder for Norwegians, or because Norwegians don't give a fuck about immigrating to America?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Primarily the former considering that

1) we have a hard-limit on the total number of legal immigrants
2) we have categories which specifically favor refugees from politically unstable nations
3) we have categories which specifically favor refugees from nations that have experienced disasters
4) we have diversity programs which specifically favor Africans

Obviously Norwegians aren't going to suddenly pour in by the hundreds of thousands, but right now, if you're a merely-good Norwegian, you're going to be waiting about a decade to get into the country. If you're a Haitian, very different story.

fwiw I'm sticking with 'Norwegian' just because it was the anecdote Durbin used; they're one of the least immigration-prone groups probably largely thanks to their incredible wealth, though thousands still come here. Things might not change wrt their emigration, but there are plenty of European nations that the same case could be made for.

 

[Einherjar86]

All that being true, it doesn't mean that fewer Norwegians than Haitians immigrate to the U.S. because it's harder for them to do so. As you said, Norwegians are less prone to immigrate as they enjoy economic and political stability. You're speculating that it would be harder for them based on current statistics, but that in itself is a limited scope.

For instance, if Norway were to suffer some kind of ecological or political catastrophe that sent the country into disarray, would it still be harder for them to immigrate? I doubt that the current restrictions you perceive against them would stand if some of those categories you listed suddenly applied to Norway.

Put another way, I don't think you can really measure the difficulty since Norwegians currently don't have a pressing need to immigrate. If circumstances arose that necessitated immigration, then we'd be dealing with a different scenario.

 

[arg]

The US should not give a shit about the economic, environmental or safety conditions of a country when considering taking in immigrants. It should be pure meritocracy and nothing else. Favoring Africans, Arabs or South Americans is racist. Coming from a shithole should not be a free pass.

 

[EternalMetal]

But he does, which is why he's willing to refuse or allow entry to people based on nationality. He's not even willing to give Haitian or African immigrants the chance to prove themselves individually. He's simply making broad assessments based on general national stats; and when you take a country like Norway versus an African country, this also correlates to racial identity.

Well im arguing that Trump is judging them based on nationality, not race. It just so happens to coincide with the idea that troubled nations are majority 'race x', and that more successful nations are 'race y'. Dont get me wrong, im not on Trump's side. Im against him discriminating against these struggling nations. This is not a matter of national security like it is with Muslim-majority countries, so I see no problem with them wanting to immigrate for a better life.

For the record, I don't have my copy of "Dr. Kismet" with me; I'm paraphrasing. I don't think Mosley was implying that "black hole" is a racially motivated term, but that blackness is commonly associated with a particular set of concepts, and that in certain cases these can be seen to intersect with attitudes toward people of color. I'm being more reductive in my comments here than I should be, but it's tough to respond to everyone without spending an hour on a post.

The whole concept is stupid. Maybe im just ignorant to the sociology, but it just seems like more PC nonsense to me. The Fox clip posted earlier had black people ticked off over the concept of 'black hole'.

 

[Dak]

EDIT: and for the record...

http://amp.slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/no-not-everything-is-racist-but-donald-trump-is.html

Trump's "unconventional approach" is achieving the slow acknowledgements like the following:

quotas by nationality are common in immigration policy

He's managed a significant shift in the Overton Window in very little time through his unfiltered and crass language. The racially minded leftists have hypothesized that Trumps sole or main impetus in running for President was to undue Obama's legacy. I doubt that, since he has been toying with the idea for decades, and I think he accurately assessed the 2016 race as the weakest competition ever. However, he has nearly undone everything relating to Obama's policy legacy in one year. If he can nominate one more young SC justice, in the next three years, I think that work will be complete.

I was listening to a piece on Patton today, and while Trump is no military mind, there's definitely some crossover (and btw, Patton certainly had at least one screw loose - he thought he was an infinitely reincarnated warrior across all of time). Some jobs require persons lacking in tact, and the situation created by every president maybe including, but definitely since Reagan, appears to have called for Trump. He can't fix decades of rot in 4 years, but it's a start.

 

[rms]

THIS BITCH thought she was special

In the Uber home from Ansari’s apartment, Grace texted a friend: “I hate men.” She continued: “I had to say no a lot. He wanted sex. He wanted to get me drunk and then fuck me.” She texted another friend after she got back to her apartment, “I’m taking a bath I’m really upset I feel weird.”


https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

 

[viewerfromnihil]

THIS BITCH thought she was special

In the Uber home from Ansari’s apartment, Grace texted a friend: “I hate men.” She continued: “I had to say no a lot. He wanted sex. He wanted to get me drunk and then fuck me.” She texted another friend after she got back to her apartment, “I’m taking a bath I’m really upset I feel weird.”


https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

Somebody shared this on FB, saying it confirmed what she already thought about Ansari. I was pretty pissed, but I didn't feel like getting into that rabbit hole of a debate on FB. I'm very supportive of the #metoo movement, but shit like this is exactly what the French petition criticized.

 

[CiG]

What recourse does an accused individual even have in the face of this #MeToo movement? I'd support some kind of mass-police/human resources report movement (something that encouraged people to actually go to the proper authorities when the incident occurs) but from what I can tell this entire thing is basically trial by social media.

I think I support #MeToo but I can't really be sure of the nature of it.